Jimmy: Hey, everybody, welcome back to the show. This is Unpacking Peanuts, and we're discussing 1964 in the work of master cartoonist Charles M. Schulz.
Hope you guys are all doing well out there. I'm your host for the day. I'm Jimmy Gownley. You might know me from my comic book series Amelia Rules. Or my graphic novel, Seven Good Reasons Not to Grow Up. Or the Dumbest Idea Ever.
Joining me, as always, are my pals, cohosts and fellow cartoonists. He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People, as well as for this very podcast. He co-created the very first Comic Book Price Guide was the original editor for Amelia Rules, and is the cartoonist behind Strange Attractors, Tangled River and A Gathering of Spells. Mr. Michael Cohen.
Michael: Hey there.
Jimmy: And he's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former vice president of Archie Comics, as well as the creator of the Instagram comic strip Sweetest Beasts, Harold Buchholz.
Jimmy: All right, guys, we are at 1964. Beatle Mania is in full swing. We're well into the 60s now and we're reaching the point in Peanuts, that is really my favorite, absolute pinnacle stuff. I'm just really, really loving all the cartooning I'm getting to see this year. And, I can't wait to talk to you guys about it. Harold, what do you think about 1964?
Harold: To me, these are the peak Peanuts that I grew up with. So I have a really fondness for this era. And like you said, there's a lot going on in the world at this time.
The JFK assassination was on November 22 of the previous year. So you're going to start to see that right at the beginning of these strips. if there's any discernible response directly or indirectly to that, this is the time. And then, as you said, Peanuts, also was happening during this Beatles invasion, of the United States. And that was, what, February 9, when they were on The Ed Sullivan Show. So, it's a turbulent time, and it'll be interesting to see if we see any of that in the strips this year.
And, just the kids update. We're ages six to 14 right now. Perfect time to get a lot of amazing material, possibly inspired by being around kids all the time. And 64 is also the year that I think Schulz got his second Reuben Award. and that was the first cartoonist to get two Reuben Awards, but he richly deserves it here. And the other milestone or kind of interesting thing that I think kind of propelled his career forward a little bit was that Robert Short’s, Gospel According to Peanuts came out through John Knox Press, and I think it was in his 15th printing by the end of 1966. So, he's being noticed outside of the normal channels for comics. And, a lot of people are talking about Peanuts in this area. It's really picking up. He is a cultural phenomenon at this point.
Jimmy: Yeah, it's really, exciting to see because at this point, for me, because it's so baked into my consciousness, this just looks I don't even know how I can necessarily discuss, like, say, the art. It just is. This is Peanuts as I always remember it from as long as I've been alive.
Michael, how about you? What are you thinking about 1964 and the strips, we've read this week?
Michael: Well, part of my experience with Peanuts is getting the one volume every year that came out, the original printings. And I don't remember well, but I think I probably got them as presents. So I had every year and it was probably like, okay, birthday present. Ah, easy to find because they knew I love this stuff. So I'm reading 1964 and started thinking like, just seems a little down from last year. Seems funny or, not as important. And every year we've done so far, there have been maybe 6,10 strips I'd never seen before because they didn't print everything in those books. And, there was a long run of strips I'd never seen before.
Harold: Do you find, Michael, that the strips you haven't read before, is there a resonance for the ones that you have in the sense that if more of this year you haven't experienced, do you think that's a negative in terms of how you respond to it? Or does it make a difference if you remember reading it?
Michael: That's what I'm thinking now, because, I started halfway through the year, I was going, okay, this isn't seem quite as funny as last year, and I don't remember seeing these before. So I suspect that I missed a book somehow. So these are all new to me, and I'm clearly not the same person I was when I was twelve years old.
Michael: Thankfully, I don't know.
Jimmy: Well, do you remember we had this discussion, when I was a kid, I loved Spiderman, but I loved the Steve Ditko Spiderman, even though I did not know that that was the original Spiderman. But I liked Marvel Tales. That version of Spiderman was the real Spiderman to me. Right. But I lived in the sticks, so I got whatever issues just happened to come through Jiffy Mart. So it was a random assortment when they reprinted those original Spiderman comics years later, when they put them out in those big, essential collections, I got to read all of them. And it was amazing. The ones I had as a kid, they were all the masterpieces. by dumb luck I happened to-- like Never Step on a Scorpion, Spiderman 29 was clearly a work of genius, whereas number 28 and it's just the way it is when they hit you at that time, it leaves such an imprint on you. Nothing that you're going to experience later in life can ever match.
Harold: Do you think it has something also to do with, Schulz is in the same era as you are? When you're reading it for the first time, there are things happening. There's just a feel for that era. And you carry that with you. And if you don't have that and you're experiencing something that's now, what's, almost 60 years old, that if you don't have that memory baked into you when you're reading it, you think there's something that just is lost that enriches the strip when you know that you were experiencing around the time Schulz was creating it and was making it for that time.
Michael: Yeah. Well, basically, I must have read these once, all of them, because they came in the LA times, which we got every day. So I must have read them once. But the books I've read 20-50 times.
Michael: And generally up to this point, when we're going back and reading every strip, I don't even have to read them. I know them that well. I just glanced at the last panel to make sure I got the punchline right. And this for the first time, it was whole sequences I'd never seen, which is great, but I'm not a teenager anymore, and they didn't strike me as relevant to my life as they did then. I mean, really Peanuts defined my worldview.
Jimmy: Well, I think I may have spoken about this before, but the thing in my life that really reminds me of is Love and Rockets in that Maggie, the main character in Jaime Hernandez’s Mechanics Stories and LOCAS Stories, was like three years older than me in and she's still three years older than me. And I experienced all that in real time with her.
But if I were now to give, like, my kids, hey, here's the Love and Rockets collection, they could read it in a week. And there's no way that's going to have that same resonance. It's really a magical thing when you get to experience it in real time, that no other generation gets. So we're lucky in that sense.
Michael: Well, yeah. I mean, we had Peanuts and the Beatles and the Dick Van Dyke Show, at least for me.
Jimmy: I have none of those except Peanuts
Michael: Happening at the same time.
Jimmy: By the way, if anyone's out there do not sleep on The Dick Van Dyke Show, it's one of the all time great TV comedies out there.
Jimmy: We should start another podcast, DVD on DVD, where we go through all the Dick van Dyke Shows on DVD and the extras. That's our next podcast. Yes, there is some stuff that I thought was kind of interesting and talking about with the Zeitgeist, you guys didn't pick any of these strips. But I thought it was interesting that he had Linus meditating and also, meditating with his eyes open, which is like a Buddhist method of meditation. And 1964 seems pretty early for that. I was kind of going around to see where that would have been in the Zeitgeist for Schulz to pick up there. Alan Watts, who sort of introduced Buddhism to the west, had a book out in, I think, 62 or 63, but there really wasn't much else.
I mean, Michael, do you have any recollection of that being a thing that early? I mean, obviously, in my understanding, it all comes, of course, from the Beatles, but that's partly because I can only discuss three things.
Jimmy: But yeah, I was shocked to see that stuff.
Michael: Well, I remember-- this must have been like the late 50s coming out of my bedroom where I was locked in with my comic books and my dad would be standing on his head, and being a kid and not having great communication skills, I never asked him, Why are you standing on your head? But he did it because he was reading Krishnamurti in the 50s. and, you know, of course, of course, never talked about it or explained anything to us. So it was just, my dad eats yogurt and stands on his head.
Jimmy: That is the most Michael thing-- you would never, of course, ask.
Harold: Yeah, when I read that, I was also wondering, there's such a thing as Christian meditation. And because Schulz tends to be a little oblique about that stuff, particularly in this era. I didn't know which way it was when I was reading, though. I was interested, because it is becoming a part of the American culture. It's just getting started. when it's coming from Eastern transcendental meditation is just getting kind of known. So, yeah, I couldn't tell where he was coming from when he was approaching this.
Jimmy: It was the eyes open thing that struck me. That was either a mistake right, or not a mistake. And he really specifically knew that it was this type you'll stare at a candle or you'll just stare at a blade of grass, or whatever like that. Yeah. the Catholic version of meditation was always just the rosary, which is very different. But yeah, I thought that was really interesting because it seemed like not only was he reflecting culture back, but in that instance, he was almost a little bit ahead of it, which is also part of these things that kept big. They feed off it. And it's hard to say what's leading.
Harold: An Schulz is really well read. We know that. We've seen that he has a big library of books. He's reading pretty widely, from what we can tell. And so, yeah, who knows what it was that he was experiencing? He might have been getting it through his kids. Who knows? It's really interesting.
Michael: Don't forget, a couple of years back, Snoopy was standing on his head in the water dish
Jimmy: oh, my gosh, that's right
Michael: It was a long sequence. Which was, again, kind of beatnik-y
Harold: Did your dad read Peanuts?
Michael: Well, yeah, he did, for I’m sure. We got the LA Times, it was on page four.
Harold: But you didn't have a water dish, so maybe
Michael: We had a dog so we probably had a water dish.
Jimmy: What was your dog name?
Michael: That was Lady at that time.
Harold: what kind of dog was Lady?
Michael: Lady was just a mutt, named after Lady and the Tramp, of course.
Harold: Of course. Yeah.
Jimmy: Classic Disney movie, where it's going to be another podcast.
Michael: Yeah. Our dogs.
Jimmy: It's like the only Disney movie that there's, like, two whole versions of. They did a wide one, a widescreen one, and like a four x three version.
Jimmy: Yeah. it’s great. If you get, like, the last time that was released on Bluray or whatever, that comes with both completely different. But it's really strange.
Harold: The backgrounds are different.
Jimmy: Yeah. At least extended and stuff. And the shots are then reframed. Oh, yeah. They have a whole documentary on it.
Harold: I remember I went for the very first day of the re release of Lady and the Tramp in the 1980s in, the theater, I think. I went in the afternoon. I just walked over to a theater. There's almost nobody there. And I think it must have been the very first showing because they hadn't changed the lens to CinemaScope, and so it was all smashed together and I had to find the projectionist.
Michael: Yeah. That's the reason I'm living in Italy, is actually--
[Liz sings Bella Notte]
Jimmy: I'm excited to talk all of those. Oh, do you have something else, Michael?
Michael: No, I'm saying Peanuts. remember that?
Jimmy: I vaguely remember Peanuts.
Jimmy: Peanuts is definitely a good thing. Harold, do you have any, info on Mr. Schulz other than what we've covered already in 1964?
Harold: No, I kind of covered my bits there. It's a really-- he's hunkering down and making strips, and I'm sure he's answering more mail than he's ever answered in his life.
Jimmy: Absolutely. Well, you know what? Let's add to the heaps of praise he was no, doubt receiving that year. And, let's just get to it. We'll start off with the strips. Sound good?
Harold: Yeah, great.
Michael: Let's do it.
Jimmy: Here we go.
January 11. Lucy, Charlie Brown, and Snoopy are standing outside. Lucy says to Charlie Brown, “do you know why dogs like people?” Lucy continues, “because they need us so much. Without people, dogs are nothing.” Snoopy's ears bolts straight up as he hears this. Then he walks away, climbs on top of his doghouse, and lying there, thinks to himself. “I thought I'd better leave before I began biting a few appropriate legs.”
Michael: I just noticed because, I was kind of flipping through the strips we picked, and Snoopy is getting really hostile.
Jimmy: He's also getting a little bit pudge.
Michael: Yeah, a little too much, dinner, I think. no, there's biting going on there's pushing people downhills.
Harold: He's angry. He's doing it in this kind of mellow, eyes closed way now.
Harold: And the thing that is, I think it's particularly evident this year, like you're saying with Snoopy. The thing that gets me in this 1964 Snoopy is we were saying that Schulz will draw the character in the pose regardless of whether it's consistent from pose to pose, because it's the right thing in the that pose. And Snoopy on the doghouse. Now, look at the thickness of his neck compared to when he's just standing. He's got a tiny little pencil neck when he's sitting. But when he's on his back, his neck is, I think it's safe to say, at least three to four times bigger. It's crazy.
Michael: I've got a question for you animation buffs, because I have not seen the cartoons. Did they ever show Snoopy getting on top of the doghouse? How does he do it?
Jimmy: I think they would show it from behind. Right. Not from behind, but rather he would go behind the doghouse and then just kind of appear on top. Was that it?
Harold: I'm drawing a blank.
Jimmy: I can't swear to that. I'm sure someone out there knows. Josh Stauffer. Are you listening? He can tell us that.
Harold: I'm sure there are people who are like, you don't know that!
Jimmy: Yeah. Oh my God. That's the podcast gets clicked off. Everyone knows that. Yeah. I don't think any of us are super familiar with all of the animated stuff. I basically know the 60s and 70s stuff. But yeah. Ah, you're always certainly right about that with that drawing. But he gets away with it. And he gets away with it by sheer force of will and just and he's consistent.
Harold: He's consistent in inconsistency.
Jimmy: Well, yeah, we're going to see that coming up in a couple of strips, too.
Oh, I should mention before we get too far down the road here, if you're out there at home and you want to play along, you can follow these strips. You can read them all for free at gocomics.com. If that ends up being a little bit of a challenge, as technology can be sometimes. We have a little video that Liz put together on our website, teach you how to navigate it. But basically just go to GoComics.com type in Peanuts, type in the year 1964. A little calendar comes up. You could pick the dates and you can follow along with us. Or you can treat yourself, go out and buy those Fantagraphics books that collect the entire series, which are, some of the prettiest comics ever made. Until then, we're just going to keep going right here.
January 13. Snoopy's on top of his doghouse again. He thinks to himself, “I wonder if it's supper time yet. I wonder if my dish is full of food.” In the next panel. He's still lying on top of the doghouse, but his eyes are all scrunched up as he thinks to himself, “I hate to look and then be disappointed. It's better to wait. Who can wait? I'll look. No, I won't. I've got to look. No, I'll wait. I’ll--” In panel three, he takes a quick glance at the, of course, empty supper dish. In panel four, he sits up in the doghouse and says, “Rats.”
Harold: What do you think of panel three in this strip? What we have in this panel is you see Snoopy, on his back as he's been in the first two panels. And then there is a head sticking out of the top of the head of, Snoopy looking down at the dog dish. And this one kind of I was kind of surprised he did this because you have to see him looking down first, and it's essentially the second motion, of him moving from but you're moving back right.
Jimmy: But you're moving left to right if you're reading.
Harold: Yeah, and I was kind of surprised he did that. it's obviously clear. He's always clear. But that was just an unusual move. Why didn't he just yes, I think you're right.
Jimmy: Just put the shot of Snoopy looking down at the dog dish. That's all you need.
Michael: Yeah, he was attempting to make it really fast.
Jimmy: A quick look. Yeah.
Harold: And I'm wondering if, maybe he tried to draw Snoopy looking over the edge, and he didn't like the way it looked. And so he gave the rest of the body and it's the normal pose that you're used to lying on his back. Then maybe he just couldn't find a way that worked where he edged Snoopy. Like you say, it has to be quick. And if he's now peering over the edge, I don't know. That one did read a little weird for me, and an interesting choice on his part.
Michael: Well, it was jarring, but there was an earlier attempt at doing this kind of quick motion with Snoopy. I don't know what year it was, but it's probably five, six years before that. We all commented on that. It didn't quite work. I think there were two of him dancing, which indicated he was, like, running back and forth really quick.
Harold: Yeah, he was running around Charlie Brown, I think. And that one actually worked for me because I guess the flow of it was following my eye was following the flow of it. And here, it kind of works against, like, this Jim saying the left to right read.
Michael: Yeah. This might be one of the disadvantages of cartooning. I mean, cartoons can do a lot that no other medium can. But quick motion doesn't always work.
Jimmy: The right cartoonist can make it happen if they find their own language. Someone like Bill Watterson, we talked about, he can certainly do it. In superhero comics Carmine Infantino would come up with some ways to show speed that work. But yeah, in this instance, I think it would have been easier just to go with Snoopy looking off, the thing and keep the body the same as it is if he's lying on his back. But just don't do the double head thing. That's hard. The master of that is actually Dave Sim, and Cerebus he can do double takes and weird hand motions and stuff that all are contained in one panel. And it's actually a lot in a really illustrative style, but it feels like motion.
Michael: Okay, I have a question. are we always looking at the same side of the dog house? Because if you, flip there, then you'd be seeing the head looking up first.
Jimmy: Right. It seems like the supper dish is always on the left. Right. So I guess that does mean we're always looking at it, at least when the supper dishes there from, the same side.
Harold: Maybe that's why I always thought we were looking at it from the same side, but I guess that doesn't have to be true. But I always thought it was true.
Jimmy: All right, well, that's a lot about supper dishes and double takes and comic strips.
Harold: Got some more supper dish.
Jimmy: Yeah. Oh, I just want to say, kids, out there, if you want to be a freelance cartoonist, that strip is exactly what it's like, except instead of food in the supper dish, it's payments from your clients, and usually it's rats.
Michael: No. For me, when I started doing my self published comic, Strange Attractors and the fact that I was doing a comic at all was just mind boggling, because before then, you couldn't even self publish. And, for me, it was going to the mailbox every morning because I wanted a letter which would make me a real cartoonist. And so I'd wait, oh, the mail might be here. No, I remember getting a letter. the first letter was like, oh, my God, I'm a cartoonist. Somebody wrote me.
Jimmy: That's a big deal.
Harold: Yeah, I got a letter from one of my readers that says, thank you for your comic book. It does not suit my present needs. At least you went out of the way to tell me that.
Jimmy: Oh, man.
January 14. Three or Four is talking to Charlie Brown, who is feeding Snoopy a big bowl of dog food in his dish.
Michael: That's three, by the way.
Jimmy: Three? It's three.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
So Three says to Charlie Brown, “I've always been sort of afraid of dogs.” Charlie Brown says as Snoopy as chowing down on the food, “well, if you don't want to get bitten, just don't bother dog while he's eating.” Three and Charlie Brown walk away. And Charlie Brown continues saying, “and whatever you do, don't get involved in a dog fight.” Snoopy returns to eating, but thinks to himself, “in fact, don't even go near a loud discussion.”
Jimmy: good advice.
Michael: Okay, now that's two bites. Two bites in January already two references to biting dogs biting people.
Jimmy: Maybe Schulz got bit by a dog and now he's having second thoughts.
You know what's weird about the drawing in this one? and this is, again, back to Schulz and the brilliance of him being able to pick an iconic picture, only this time, after a zillion times of watching Snoopy eat at the dog dish, that I noticed that the ears just stick out off the back, as opposed to draping, as if they would with actual gravity. But if that was drawn that way, it wouldn't look right. It would cover part of his face or maybe his eye.
Harold: Yeah, the liberties he takes with ears, it's pretty amazing and cool. And it's inspiring to me as a cartoonist to see you draw it for what reads and what makes sense for the comic, not for reality.
Jimmy: Well, you know, that brings up another thing that I was thinking about. I was reading an interview recently in Charles Schulz Conversations, and where they just have a bunch of interviews reprinted, and he's talking, he's doing his bit where he says, you know, my characters are like my little repertory company, right, and I can move them around and have them fit any needs.
And I started thinking, he says that so often, maybe that is more of a key to his creativity than we think about. And what I mean by that is, a repertory company in real life would be a group of actors that can play different roles, right? But these the actors are also the characters. So he's not looking at it as, I will create this Peanuts world, and I will populate it with these characters, but rather, I have these characters, actors that are so well developed on their own, I can assemble them in basically any situation and make it work. You know, I think that's how we get to things like the Snoopy adventure strips, where he's just thinking it is okay, if I was going to make an adventure strip, how would I use my repertory company to fill it out?
Harold: Well, obviously, you pull three out of your quiver.
Jimmy: Wait, why? I don't even get it.
Michael: The character three.
Jimmy: Oh, the three character.
Harold: like a golf bag. It's your three iron.
Harold: Your wood.
Michael: No. There's some truth in that, because he's phasing out characters who just aren't fitting the bill. He needed a Frieda-type character for certain situations. Patty couldn't do it.
Jimmy: And he's really nailing those characters when they come along. For the most part, this three, four, five thing doesn't quite pan out as well as we thought. But I love that they somehow achieve immortality by being in the Christmas special, even though they're, like, among the most minor characters.
Harold: Well, he seems embarrassed about their names. After the first week, he doesn't want to mention them. He can help it for a while.
Jimmy: Well, it's so funny. I think I've mentioned this before because he says, oh, I'm not a fan of going after the funny name. Yet he does it again and again. Well, it's low hanging fruit, right?
Harold: I get beneath him though, it really does. And he says it's beneath him.
Michael: Names that much. I mean Joe Shlabotnik. But those days there are a lot of like Polish baseball players like Ted Kluszewski and
Harold: Woodstock, Pigpen
Jimmy: It's a lot.
Michael: Those are nicknames though. Those are nicknames.
Jimmy: Well, yeah, but I mean, the character is its funny name. I think that's what I mean by anyway,
January 17, Charlie Brown and Linus are standing outside with Snoopy. Snoopy's not apparently paying attention, but Charlie Brown says to Linus, “Have you ever heard of a, Diatryma? He was a bird who stood 7ft tall and had a head as large as that of a horse. He had a huge sharp bill and powerful legs with which he could run down small animals.” Charlie Brown is saying this to Linus. Linus looks shocked. Snoopy's ears are shot skyward in complete panic. Charlie Brown continues by saying “he is now extinct. In fact, he hasn't been around for 60 billion years.” In last panel, Snoopy looking a bit shaken, thinks to himself “and we don't miss him a bit.”
Michael: And there's another bite reference from January.
Harold: Look at this. Maybe one of his kids got bitten by something out on the Sebastopol Ranch. Maybe there's like cougars walking. I don't know what goes on.
But I want to point out again choices that Schulz makes that I think other cartoonists maybe wouldn't have made. But in this case, I really think this works. So Snoopy is to the left of Charlie Brown and Linus who are having this conversation. And in the second panel, it takes up almost two thirds of the panel, just that long description of the diatryma or whatever. Diatryma. and it's interesting because you have to read through six lines of dialogue from Charlie Brown before you look at the image. Theoretically, if you're going from left to right, top to bottom. So he has Snoopy's response, the first thing you see on the left. And I think that's really interesting because theoretically, Charles Brown speaking first, and I think some cartoonists would put Snoopy to the right, but he puts Snoopy to the left. And I think this is where Charles Schulz absolutely masters the deadpan Snoopy with the ears straight up. He does just, a couple strips back at the very beginning, what we did here. But his ears are a little angled, I guess, because Charlie Brown is blocking where his ear would go in this, right? I think it's just the perfect little deadpan, you know, you don't show it on the outside except for your ears give you away, kind of like I love that. I think it's so cool. And Snoopy, his expression, the last panel is priceless. He's just let down from, he's. Relieved. At the same time, he's like, oh, man, I don't want to ever see one of those things.
Michael: Harold, I don't want to turn this into a huge conversation, but I don't think people read the words first and then look at the picture.
Harold: That's interesting.
Michael: I think I maybe get kind of a gestalt of the panel, like, get my eyes around and then read it.
Harold: Interesting. Yeah. I think I tend to, well, I know in this case, I was reading the text in the periphery. I could kind of see what's going on, but I didn't really get the humor of the expression on Snoopy, where and I really focus on it until I was done reading. But yeah, people are different. Yeah.
Jimmy: Well, I think this should be a huge conversation. Why not? I don't know. One of the things I think, in the context of a gag cartoon, like for the New Yorker, I think you have to look at the picture first and then read the caption. Right. Because if you read the caption and then look at the picture, all you'll notice is that, oh, yes, that confirms what the caption says.
Harold: If you see the picture first,
Jimmy: the picture has to be a mystery.
Harold: Yeah. If the picture is on top of the caption, I don't know who's going to read the caption first, because it's just so much more it's grabbing your eye and it's on top. Right. So it's designed for exactly what you're saying so no one gets it out of order.
Jimmy: Well, as long as we're talking about stuff that is just completely esoteric and inside baseball. Scott McCloud defines comics as pictorial, and other images juxtaposed in deliberate sequence. Right. And then he goes on and says, so therefore, a New Yorker comic strip is not a comic because it's not juxtaposed. It's only one image. But since, the definition says pictorial and there's a picture and other images, and there's letters, and they're separated and thus juxtaposed, I'd just like to point out here on this podcast that Scott McCloud is completely wrong.
Michael: That's blasphemy.
Harold: So you're saying that the letters are images?
Jimmy: Yeah. by his definition, the letters are images.
Harold: Okay. I hear what you're saying. Let Scott on to defend himself.
Jimmy: Yeah, I don't actually really care. It's, by the way, the best book ever written about comics.
Harold: We're just trying to prod him. Come on to the show, Scott.
Jimmy: Oh, I would love that. no, he is one of my all time faves. I love love love Scott McCloud.
Harold: That's great.
Jimmy: And I loved Zot before Understanding Comics.
Hey. So we were at the beginning of this saying, well, I think we might actually be able to get through this episode relatively quickly. And I notice we are now 30 minutes into it, and we, are in January. So what we're going to do is take a quick break. so when we do that, you guys can pause it and you could go, and go to Unpacking Peanuts.com. You can sign up for The Great Peanuts reread where you'll start getting email from us. You haven't gotten them yet because we were working out some technical glitches. But that’s starting-- it should already have started by the time you are listening to this. If you haven't fired up your GoComics.com, you can do that. And otherwise we'll just be back right after I play this, which is the correct pronunciation of whatever that bird was called. We'll all learn it together right now.
VO: Hi, everyone. I just want to take a moment to remind you that all three hosts are cartoonists themselves and their work is available for sale. You can find links to purchase books by Jimmy, Harold, and Michael on our website. You can also support the show on Patreon or buy us a mud pie. Check out the store link on unpackingpeanuts.com.
Jimmy: And we're back. Did you miss us? I missed you. We're still in January, so let's get back to it.
January 22. Charlie Brown and Snoopy are at the top of a hill. Charlie Brown is carrying his sled behind him. He says to Snoopy. “This is a steep hill. Snoopy.” They both sit down on Charlie Brown’s sled. Then Charlie Brown says to Snoopy, “but we're not afraid, are we? We know that no matter what dangers lie ahead, we can face them if we stick together.” Then in the last panel, Snoopy casually pushes Charlie Brown down the hill alone with his rear paw, sending Charlie Brown flying and his hat flying off Charlie Brown's head.
Michael: So this is hostility.
Harold: Give them a nice push, you know?
Jimmy: Yeah, I don't think it's hostility because they're going together, but Snoopy's like, you know, you still go, that's fine. You do you but you talked me out of it. I think it's Charlie Brown's fault for talking so much about it.
Harold: Here's another technical question in terms of well, it's more of an artistic choice. We see Charlie Brown and Snoopy looking down the mountain to the left instead of to the right. And so when Snoopy kicks him off the mountains, Charlie Brown is going off to the left instead of to the right. Why did Charles Schulz choose to do it that direction rather than in the direction we are reading the strip?
Jimmy: It might be as prosaic as he had to put the word balloon where it went in the first panel because of the block of Peanuts text.
Harold: But if you think about it, if you flip it, you wouldn't have to move that one.
Jimmy: Oh, that's true. No, you wouldn't have to move that one. But maybe then maybe it is either conscious or subconscious decision to go intentionally against the flow of the reader so that you feel Snoopy pushing it. You're forced to suddenly bounce kind of.
Harold: With those, I'm thinking, because I think it was C.C. Beck, who used to do the Captain Marvel. He was all about clarity. And one of the things he said is, if you wanted to add tension to the comic, have the characters go in the opposite direction that you're reading, and that creates some sort of attention. It's more jarring if you do that.
Jimmy: Well, it's very funny that you should mention this because I'm working on this personal project, this depression book i, think I mentioned on here. And it all builds up towards this sort of two-page spread that I finished just last week. And the two-page spread is basically exactly trying to achieve this. And something goes on in the background. Something comes in either from the left going right, or from the right going left. And I actually had to think about it for like 25 minutes before I decided that I wanted to do exactly what Schulz was saying and have the thing come in the opposite direction so that it does interrupt the reader's flow, because it specifically had to feel like an impact.
Harold: Right. And I think that really doe-- that's not just theory, I think that actually does work. And the one of the thing I really love in this strip is the third panel of Snoopy. Considering what Charlie Brown saying, that we're sticking together through thick and thin. And Snoopy's nose is not where it normally should be. It's like, moved away from Charlie Brown as if he's already distancing himself, but just his nose. It's just shifted a little bit on the snout away from Charlie Brown.
Jimmy: Yeah, it's almost as if you could see his mouth. You would see it like kind of off to one side, like I don't know which. Also sort of has that feel in the last panel, too, even though that's a classic. Even though there's no mouth at all a classic. And we have seen him do something similar like this to Linus.
Harold: It was worth redoing. It's funny every time.
Jimmy: Oh, it is funny every time. Absolutely.
January 27. This is part of a long sequence, and this is actually one of my favorite sequences, and I remember this a lot as a kid. What it is, is Lucy has decided to help Charlie Brown out at the psychiatry booth by giving him a presentation of all of his faults, which she has prepared as a slideshow. So in this particular one, she is beginning to show the slides to Charlie Brown. So we see her setting up the slide projector, turn Charlie Brown and the slide projector, and she says, “okay, turn off the lights.” Panel two is completely black. And in panel three, the slide projector starts up, illuminating Charlie Brown and Lucy. And Lucy says, “now, this afternoon, Charlie Brown, we're going to be looking at slides which deal with your many personality faults. Some of them are quite shocking. Take this one for instance,” Charlie Brown says “Aaugh.” Lucy says, “easy, easy. This is only the beginning.”
Michael: Yeah. This is one of the great sequences. And, maybe I should have picked the whole thing.
Jimmy: At some point I want to do that. We have to figure a way-- we don't want to read all the strips because we don't want to infringe on Mr. Schulz's copyright. We're trying to add discussion and scholarship to the mix. But I do think it would be really important to, at some point, find a really long one and look at it in depth. This, is a great one, though.
Michael: It's brilliant. And part of the thing that makes it so funny is the fact he doesn't show the slides. And he couldn't possibly show the slides right. Because there's no way he can show a side of a personality fault.
Harold: That's true. Yeah. Boy, Schulz's craft is just jumping out of me in every single one of these. He's at the top of this game. So, as Jimmy described it, Lucy says, Turn out the lights, and on the next panel, there is nothing but black. The lights have been turned out. And then when she has the thing back on, we see them from the side as Lucy goes through an incredibly long dialogue. He could have used the second panel to break that up, but I think it's genius that he has that black panel in panel two.
Jimmy: It is total genius. Total genius. And there's so much black ink on this strip. It looks like it could be a Dick Tracy strip. I love it, especially because he's not messing it up with his whiteout stars in the background. It's just pure black because we're inside, the characters are great against it. And this goes again to what William Pepper was saying all those weeks ago. Lucy's trying to help.
Harold: Yeah. And for those of you who have not read this before, a, little spoiler that she ultimately does send Charlie Brown a bill for $143. And, when she breaks it down and itemizes it, she spent some money on this and she's trying to cover some of her costs.
Jimmy: Now, I believe $100 was her personal fee though.
Harold: But $43 for Lucy to spend on Charlie Brown's faults for the slides and running the projector is I mean, that's dedication.
Jimmy: It absolutely is. One of the things I've said is that sometimes I feel like the wrap up of these long stories sometimes doesn't land for me. This one just does. When it gets through the way that you get my bill, and it slowly shifts from this over, showing you all your faults, too. This is how much your bill is. Hey, I'm not going to pay that. And every level of it's funny and character driven and really good. I really encourage everyone to go out and read this entire sequence.
February 9. Linus is sitting inside and he's playing with some Lincoln Logs, putting together a little toy log cabin. Then suddenly, all his hair shoots up his head, and he looks at his hand and says, “a sliver.” He yells to the sky, “I got a sliver. I got a sliver in my finger.” He continues as Lucy comes over saying, “let's see.” Linus pulls his hand away from her, yelling, “don't touch it. Don't touch it.” Lucy, walking away, says,”I'd better go get a pair of tweezers.” Linus is now standing on top of what looks like a kitchen stool and yelling, “no, no, it'll hurt. You'll kill me. You'll kill me.” Lucy comes over with her tweezers, looking annoyed, and says, “look, you want to get the sliver out, don't you? Well, hold still.” In the next panel, we see Lucy performing her operation while Linus looks about ready to faint. Then in the next panel, Linus pulls his hand back again and says, “wait a minute. Didn't we forget something?” Then in the final panel, he says to Lucy, “while you're operating, I thought I was supposed to be biting on a bullet.”
Michael: This strip means a lot to me right now because I have a splinter, and I'm trying to ignore it.
Harold: Oh, no.
Michael: And now it's getting infected. Liz is going to have to do it and give me, an injection of morphine or something.
Harold: Jimmy: Well, remember, no sliver is so big or so complicated that it can't be run away from.
Harold: Well, if you just wait ten years, it will dissolve.
Jimmy: By the way, speaking of it, you just called it a splinter, right? This is, to me, one of those weird Schulz things. I've never heard anyone else call it a sliver.
Harold: That’s interesting. Yeah.
Jimmy: it's like tricks or treats.
Jimmy: I love the drawings of Linus yelling of course. The big black mouth in these characters works great, but my favorite is Linus on top of the tiny little, kitchen stool. I love whenever Schulz has to draw something from our real world, and he actually tries to make it look like something from the real world, because he always does it perfectly and in the most minimal way possible. It's just a great kitchen chair, like at an island or something.
Harold: Yeah, that should be a fridge magnet. Just that one panel. Michael, I hope your sliver resolves itself without any issues.
Michael: I'm probably going to put it, off for another week or two until it gets really horrible.
Jimmy: The calls I've had with Michael, he's like, well, the orders for the new comic came in and be like, oh, what are they? I don't know. I haven't looked. When did they come in? Five days ago.
Michael: If you don't look, it doesn't exist. That's my theory.
Jimmy: By the way, I don't think biting on the bullet was real. You bit on a leather strap. Right. I don't think anyone actually bit a bullet.
Harold: Oh really?.
Jimmy: That's a malapropism-- not a malapropism.
Harold: It's the opposite of an urban myth-- would be more like a frontier myth.
Jimmy: Frontier myth. Yeah, right.
Harold: Or maybe they all knew in the frontier that you didn't bite on a bullet, so maybe you're right. Just an urban myth.
February 11. Snoopy, pretending he's keeping to himself, but is actually up to something, watches as Linus walks by. As Linus crosses Snoopy, Snoopy gets up and kicks him in the butt. Then Snoopy sprints away from Linus, who finds him, but he can't do anything because Snoopy has run directly to the Humane Society with the smugglest look on his face you'd ever would see.
Jimmy: And the most annoyed looking Linus.
Harold: Every single drawing in this. This is a perfection strip. It's just so well done.
Michael: Is this like total aggression? Yes.
Harold: Snoopy’s enjoying it. Telling you. I love the little boot with the seraph font.
Jimmy: But it’s, he's smiling, so he's not really being aggressive. I mean, yes, it's annoying. Linus but we'd say, oh, he's just getting him going. This was basically the constant state of childhood, right, for me. Was everybody constantly everybody's trying to get into these goats constantly? No, I would kick occasionally. I mean, whatever. They play baseball. Things happen. That's an injoke. People forget it. You didn't hear it here.
February 16. Charlie Brown is reading a piece of paper and he says, “Very interesting.” Linus, overhearing this, says, “what's very interesting?” Then Charlie Brown says to Linus, “listen, these are words to parents from Dr. Horwich. Charlie Brown continues reading. This is a quote from Dr. Horwich. “If homework is to be beneficial to a child, it should not consist of assignments imposed as a punishment for behavior totally unrelated to the work assigned.” Linus agrees and says, “that's good thinking, Dr. Horwich. You're a gem.” Charlie Brown continues, “the child, who is tardy in arriving at school, should not have to read an extra 20 pages at home as punishment for such behavior.” Linus says, “that's what I say.” Charlie Brown continues, “children in elementary schools should not be given assignments, all of which combined will take longer than 1 hour to complete.” Linus, “hear, hear”, as he points to the sky. Charlie Brown. “The child should not be asked to spend the entire time between dinner and bedtime doing homework.” Linus, pounding the table, says, “Amen. How right can you get?” Charlie Brown continues, “whenever there is homework, there must be a three member team the teacher, the child, and the parent.” Linus, arms folded across his chest, says, “I fully agree” then shouts to the heavens, “let the principal keep out of it,” sending Charlie Brown flying. Charlie Brown, lying on the ground smiling, says,”it's not often that a person gets the chance to read to someone who shows such enthusiasm.”
Michael: Who is this Horwich guy? He sounds like a communist to me.
Jimmy: he's my hero. I agree with all of that. I remember when my daughters were in 6th grade, they would have like three and a half hours worth of homework at night. In 6th grade.
Harold: Dr. Horwich is actually real. This is Dr. Frances Horwich. And she was the lady who was the host of Ding Dong School, which he mentioned. Miss Frances is the other way he referred to Horwich.
Jimmy: Ms. Frances coming back!
Jimmy: Getting more appearances
Harold: Over how much of a period of time. I mean, there's a lot of love for, Dr. Horwich here. So, yeah, she was syndicated through, like, 1965. She ran for over a decade. So she was a part of Schulz's life, apparently. And he liked her a lot, from what we can tell in these strips. I just love this stuff with Linus. He's just totally getting into it. I love him pounding on the table, and the little midcentury modern lamp is bounced off of it. It feels great. And the little cord for the lamp just curling itself down to the, plug in there. I remember this one as a kid.
Jimmy: The little TV details, the little couch.
Harold: Yeah. Showing the TV is a little nod to Dr. Horwich, too, that you see the TV, since that's how Linus and Charlie Brown would see, miss Frances would be on the TV. So he's even stuck that in there. Unless that's the washing machine. I take it all back.
Michael: Or a robot.
Harold: But I remember this as a kid. I totally remember this as a kid.
Jimmy: I completely agree with, Ms. Frances and Linus. I think that all makes sense.
March 1. It's a long line of kids going up to a ticket booth. The kids in line are Violet, Linus, Charlie Brown, Patty, Lucy, Schroeder, five, three and four.
Michael: That's correct.
Charlie Brown says to Linus, “I shouldn't be here,” while way up at the front of line four says, “One, please.” That's confusing. Then Charlie Brown says to Linus, to no one in particular, “I should get out of line and go home.” Then Charlie Brown continues. As the line gets closer and closer to the ticket booth, Charlie Brown says, “I feel guilty about going to the show today. I should be home helping my mother.” Five now says “one, please.” Charlie Brown continues talking to Linus, “I have school work to do, too. I have a book report to write and about ten pages of arithmetic.” Schroeder “one, please.” Charlie Brown continues, “I really shouldn't be going to the show. I feel awfully guilty about it. I should go home.” Lucy “one, please.” Charlie Brown continuing, “I can't really enjoy a show when I feel guilty about going to it. I should just get out of line and go back home.” Patty says “One please.” Now Charlie Brown is at the front of the line, and he says, “One, please.” Now Linus is at the front, and he says, “Good old wishywashy. Charlie brown. One, please.”
Michael: Shermy doesn't even get to say one please!
Jimmy: That's what depressed me. We only see him in the last panel and a half.
VO: Let’s check the Shermometer, Charlie Brown.
Harold: So I can say Shermy is a straggler.
Jimmy: Oh, see, there you go. It adds to the Shermomether
Harold: or a late comer. I don't know. What do you think is the right…
Jimmy: Well, I like straggler because late comer, I mean, he was there at the beginning.
Well, we don't know
Jimmy: in a meta way. well, the beginning of the strip.
Harold: I thought you meant at the beginning of THIS strip.
Jimmy: Ah, oh no, he clearly was a late comer to the show.
Harold: I wonder if he even has a quarter to pay for his-- bum it off of Frieda.
Jimmy: Yeah, not from his royalties, certainly at this point. But if we agree that he is a straggler, that would make Shermy, as of 1964, a straggling bystanding cynical philosophical, history loving, empathetic, aggressive, compassionate, patient, pedantic, knowledgeable, emotional, good listening, vain, friendly, hypocrite.
Harold: Boy, I envy the kids that all these kids are just able to freely walk down to a movie theater and go see a go see a show. Wow. I remember reading this little kid going, you know, even if they're standing in line to get the free candy bar and Charlie Brown, who can get the free candy bar, I'm still like, but go into a show he just could walk down and see a show at the local theater. I thought, how cool would that be?
Jimmy: That particular one, the one where he isn't there in time to get the candy bar. It's like 1500 kids, the first 1500. I remember thinking that there aren't 1500 people in my whole city. In the whole city. Girardville, I think at that point probably had 2400 people.There certainly weren't 1500 kids.
Harold: Apparently there were 1500 kids in Hennepin County.
Michael: Oh my God. So he uses this line of kids things quite often from here on in, doesn't he?
Harold: Yeah, they're memorable
Jimmy: I don’t know about quite often, but certainly they're all memorable and certainly several times. I love it when just the visual joy of seeing all the characters in like one panel is really cool.
March 22, Schroeder, in full catcher gear, is out on the field and he says, “hey manager, we have a problem.” Charlie Brown in his manager gear, standing by the bench, says “I'm used to that.” Schroeder comes up holding Snoopy's supper dish to Charlie Brown and says “we're missing second base today, so I thought we could use Snoopy’s dish.” Charlie Brown says, “I guess that'll do all right for practice.” Then in the next panel, we see Linus smacking the ball a good one and rounding first, only to come face to face with a growling, snarling, Snoopy protecting his water dish and thus runs back to first. Now, in the next, sequence we see Five, who also gives the ball a ride, runs past first, goes to second, only to be greeted by a growling, snarling Snoopy. And he too runs back to first. Charlie Brown says, “this is going to be one of those days when we get nothing but singles.”
Michael: Now, Snoopy hasn't exhibited this behavior as a second baseman before. Is it the dish?
Jimmy: It's the dish.
Michael: You sure it's the dish?
Jimmy: Of course it is.
Michael: But it's an empty dish, though.
Jimmy: Yeah, but he doesn't want people do you want people putting their feet in your food dish? Sure. And secondly, I think we can kind of say maybe Charlie Brown isn't all at fault because Linus not only runs back to first, he must run home. Because if Five comes up next, Linus would still be on first. Right. And now they would both be stuck. So I think Linus just hauled it and went home. He's like, too bad. Forget it.
Harold: Snoopy's teeth here, they're funny and they're a little bit menacing.
Jimmy: That's a tough thing to do, to draw the opposite emotion. Right. I mean, he's drawing something that's supposed to look ferocious and vicious in world, but to us has to look that way, but also look--
Harold: and adorable.
Jimmy: Yeah, it's a tough
Harold: But that mouthful of upper teeth is just priceless. It's just like one giant tooth. It's got some crags in it. It's great.
Jimmy: And here's another example. Like, this could have been Schroeder. There's no reason this had to be Five.
Harold: Do you think he's really trying to find his way with these characters and give Three, Four and Five their due?
Jimmy: It seems to be, but he's not doing it by expanding their personalities like he would do with any of the other.
Harold: My theory is the Three, Four and Five represent kids that were coming over to the, Sebastopol ranch that they were just nice, easygoing kids. They got slightly scraggly hair with the girls and got this, kind of crazy crew cut for Five. That's my personal theory is that these are kids that somehow reflect the personalities of the kids that Schulz was seeing on his sprawling ranch estate or whatever.
Jimmy: What's your take on five, Michael?
Michael: I think he's a Shermy substitute.
Jimmy: Which is so weird, though.
Michael: This would be a perfect role for Shermy.
Jimmy: the perfect role for Shermy, right? Absolutely.
Michael: Five might be, like, paying Shultz off or something. He's got a better agent, let's say.
Harold: Nothing old Abe Lincoln couldn't take care of.
Jimmy: Have you met my friend, Mr. Washington?
Harold: One, please.
March 29. And we see. our first panel is a framed picture of Charlie Brown smiling with words underneath it saying, Our manager. That's on the picture of Charlie Brown. The next panel, we see Lucy carrying her baseball bat and holding a bag. Looks like a sack lunch. And she's walking to the field where she approaches Schroeder and says, “Here, have a donut.” Schroeder says, “thank you,” as he takes a donut from out of Lucy’s sack. They're both standing there as they watch Charlie Brown in the foreground who is managing the baseball team. Lucy says to Schroeder, “I wonder how Charlie Brown ever got to be our manager. None of us has any respect for him.” Schroeder says, “I suppose it's a matter of dedication.” As he eats the donut, he says to Lucy, “Charlie Brown is the only one who's completely dedicated to baseball. This is what makes a good manager.” Then Schroeder concludes his little homily to Lucy, saying, “I think he'd rather manage than eat.” Then Lucy walks with her little bag out to Charlie Brown and says, “here, Charlie Brown, have a donut.” Charlie Brown says, “no, thank you. I'd rather manage.” Lucy walks back to Schroeder and says, “you're right.”
Michael: I was thinking Lucy seems to be nicer. she's offering donuts. She was going to help Linus with his splinter. And then I saw the next strip.
April 1. Charlie Brown is sitting eating his peanut butter sandwich on his bench in the schoolyard. And Lucy says, “Charlie Brown, that little red haired girl wants you to come over and eat lunch with her.” Charlie Brown walks over out of panel. A look of just he's overcome with emotion. He's partly afraid. He looks slightly excited too. He's clutching his lunch close to his chest. Lucy watches as he walks away. Then in the last panel, he comes back with a wicked glare on his face. And Lucy says to him, “april fool.”
Michael: That is the nastiest thing she's ever done.
Jimmy: It's really bad. Especially if you consider what would have happened in that missing panel.
Harold: But look at that innocent little look on her face when she says April Fool. I don't know that she thinks that's the case. She doesn't know how strongly Charlie Brown feels about the little red haired girl. I don't know. Lucy really is changing in front of our eyes here. Right. She's growing up. She's the older sister character and has been for quite some time. But there seems to be this kind of air of responsibility attached to her that I don't remember seeing as much. She's often irresponsible in being responsible, but she does seem to be maturing. And it goes back to, I can't remember, was Amy or Jill saying that they thought for sure Lucy was inspired by Meredith, who's now 14 years old. I'm just wondering if Schulz in any way connects Lucy to somebody who's growing and changing in front of him.
Michael: Possibly. Now, you don't think she's trying to help him, do you?
Jimmy: Not in this instance.
Harold: But playing April Fool on someone can mean that you're friends. You know what I mean? Right. and that look on her face is just so perfectly innocent and almost just like she's sticking her face. I don't know. There's just something in that look that it just seems so crazily innocent when it's so, totally inappropriate. She's clueless. I don't know.
Jimmy: if I were a genius, which I am not, and I wanted to convey that what you're saying,
Harold, I think what I would have done is have it be April Fool? Question mark. Right. Because the look I'm seeing on her face is almost like, oh, That was a lot harsher than I thought it would be. You know what I mean? Because if you picture what is happening in that third panel, right, he would have had to go over, talk to a little red haired girl, say, oh, my friend Lucy said he wanted to have lunch with me. And she'd be like, what are you talking about? It would be the worst thing ever. I don't think Lucy thought that much…
Harold: I don't think Lucy even thinks it after the fourth panel. She's not an empath in that regard. Right. So she sees it. She's just like, now that went over just like I thought it would. It's fun.
Michael: Is there any chance because she's trying to help him, right, by showing him the slideshow? He's never talked to the little red haired girl, and she got him to talk to a little red haired girl.
Harold: That is true.
Jimmy: Oh, that's true.
Harold: Could have gone down well. Yeah, it's true. We don't know.
Jimmy: Well, that's true. The other thing about what we're discussing, Harold, right, with her intent in that last panel, this, is based on, unbelievably close reading of infinitesimally small pen lines and the changes to them. He is and he's conveying a real subtlety of emotion. It's a beautiful cartooning.
Harold: That drawing of Charlie Brown is heartbreaking and priceless and funny all at the same time.
Jimmy: The way he’s-- You could see him angrily crunching the bag next to him
Harold: Because this is one time when Charlie Brown owns his emotion. He's not being wishy washy either. He is 100% thinking one thing.
Jimmy: I would like to kill you,
Harold: and in a way, that's kind of exhilarating to see him look that way, because he's often so uncertain of himself.
Jimmy: For sure. Absolutely. There's no question that, the characters are growing, that the strip continues to branch out and to deepen it's just doing all kinds of great stuff.
So great that we're going to have to stop for this week. But I really hope you guys come back next week, because we have seven more months left of 1964 still to discuss. But, until then, what I would really love for you to do is, check out our website, Unpacking Peanuts.com, right? You could go you could vote for the strip of the year. You could check out some transcripts that Liz has posted, a, little tutorial on how to navigate Gocomics. Obscurities are listed up there and of course, all the old episodes. You can also find us on social media at UnpackPeanuts on both Instagram and Twitter. And we would love to hear from you. We also started a little Peanuts hotline. So if you want to call, leave a message with a question or a brief comment, you can do that, too. You can call us at 717-219-4162. And we would love to hear from you. And if you have a good question or a great comment, we might use it on the show.
Other than that, just come back here next week where we're going to continue 1964. Until then, for Michael and Harold, I'm Jimmy. Be of good cheer.
Michael and Harold: Yes, be of good cheer.
VO: Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, and Harold Buchholz. Produced by Liz Sumner. Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voice over by Aziza Shukralla Clark. For more from the show, follow @UnpackPeanuts on Instagram and Twitter. For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com. Have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.