1998 Part 2 - Foxtrotting With The Little Red-haired Girl

Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. This is Unpacking Peanuts, and I'll be your host for the proceedings. My name is Jimmy Gownley, and guess what? I'm also a cartoonist. I did things like Amelia Rules, Seven Good Reasons not to Grow up, and the Dumbest Idea Ever. 

Joining me, as always, are my pals, co hosts and fellow cartoonists. He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People, as well as for this very podcast. He's the co creator of the original comic book price guide, the original editor for Amelia Rules, and the creator of such great strips as Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells, and Tangled River. It's Michael Cohen.

Michael: Say hey.

Jimmy: He's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former Vice president of Archie Comics, and the creator of the Instagram sensation Sweetest Beasts, Harold Buchholz.

Harold: Hello.

Jimmy: And making sure everything runs smoothly and keeping us out of trouble, it's our editor and producer, Liz Sumner.

Liz: Hey, now.

Jimmy: Well, guys, we're back. We took a little break. you the listener, really probably will not be aware of this. Or maybe you will be, I don't know, but we haven't recorded in a long old time. Harold, you were off on some adventures, weren't you?

Harold: Yeah, I went to the licensing expo in Las Vegas. and for those of you not familiar with that, they have this annual event, and it's pretty amazing. they don't charge you a whole lot to just go out there and walk the floor. But what it's designed to be is for anybody who might have a brand or a character or whatever that could be sold to somebody else to utilize that character. So, like, say the Michelin Tire man, you want to do a tie in with the Michelin tire guy, you could license that from the owners of Michelin. 

So that's what I was at. And I had my little Sweetest Beasts characters there, and I was showing it around to people, and it was. It was really amazing. But I'll tell you who had the very best booth at the licensing expo this year was Peanuts 75th anniversary. They went all out. They had the most amazing, amazing booth space. And it was so fun. I mean, you just were walking around this thing. It took a while to get around the whole thing. It was huge. And they're having meetings with people who might want to make the Snoopy Snoopy Ballpoint pens or Snoopy plush toys or put out a Snoopy book series or whatever. Anytime you see something with Snoopy on it, that's, you know, a licensee often who is deciding that they want to use Peanuts. And Peanuts is really hot right now. 

The 75th anniversary, which is coming up, I think it officially kind of lands around the time the very first strip came out in October. But they're building up to it. And so Peanuts was a big, big part of this licensing show. And it was so cool to see their amazing booths, to see Jeannie Schulz in a giant screen talking about Peanuts, and to see the versions of Peanuts that were there. 

I think the cool thing for me was there's seems to be more of a focus on later Peanuts in terms of the look, that was very interesting because at least for the 75th anniversary, they seem to be focusing on, like, 90s, the stuff we're reading right now. there was a lot of that look in the Peanuts that was at this licensing expo, because, as we've talked about, the characters changed a lot, and even the feel of the strip has changed a lot over 50 years. This is so fascinating to me because we've said, you know, for us, you know, for Michael or for me, it might be the late 50s or the mid-60s, where we're really focused on that version of it, really speaks to us. But the fact that this ran for 50 years and has not been around, we haven't seen new Peanuts for 25 years by Schulz, and yet, you know, the version that we've settled into, at least for this period, and this is true for licensing, often they will focus on one particular period so that they can do cool things, and then they'll reinvent themselves two years later and focus on a different era. But that's where we are right now. You're going to see a lot of stuff, I think, that has that. That more uneven, line that we know so well now, reading these strips, and the kind of the rounder, fatter Snoopy and the sweatshirt Lucy, you know, all that stuff is where they seem to be right now. And it's cool because in a way that Peanuts, except for maybe the people who watched a lot of the animated specials where it seemed to grow up with Peanuts, it's a look that a lot of people didn't experience, or just not the version of Peanuts they remember.

Liz: And can we put some of your photos of the booth on social media?

Harold: Absolutely. Yeah. I got a lot of really fun photos of different angles of the booth so we'll share that.

Liz: That'd be great.

Jimmy: That's awesome. Well, it's good to know that Peanuts remains vital in people's lives. I had no doubt. it's cool that they're doing, some of the 90s looking stuff just because I'm totally into it now that we're into it. Yeah, it's, it's really hard to keep in mind 50 years, how, you know, just multiple generations experiencing this strip and all having their own versions of it. It's, it's quite an accomplishment. So, we got anything else off the top? Nothing else. Should we just get right to these comic strips?

Michael: Sure.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: Well, that's always exciting. So, if you guys want to follow along, the first thing you got to do is go over to unpackingpeanuts.com, sign up for that great Peanuts reread before it's too late, and you'll get one email a month, getting you a little newsletter from us telling you what strips we're going to be covering in the next few episodes before we get to the end of this run. Hard to believe we've made it this far. So. Yeah, so do that. And then, you'll have to. You're on your own. How to read these strips. For the last couple ones, you could go over to gocomics.com which previously was free, but now is going to cost you about five bucks. You get a subscription that will get you not only Peanuts, but, everything else as well. And, otherwise just, Google around a bit. Be clever. You'll figure it out. As far as us, though, Here we go. 

May 7th. Snoopy is atop the dog house, typing away, and he writes, I will always wait for you. She said, I'm not going anyplace. He said, if you don't go anyplace, I can't wait for you. She said. Then Lucy comes up and reviews this work and says, that's the dumbest thing I've ever read. And then Snoopy types away saying, I'll add some footnotes. 

Jimmy: All right, you ready? Here's my insane theory on this.

Michael: Oh, I know your insane theory.

Jimmy: You go ahead and tell me then.

Michael: Well, it has to do with footnotes overpowering the actual text in a certain book, right?

Jimmy: Correct.

Michael: It is.

Jimmy: I love that you knew that this is my, my theory, because I know at this time he was, this is when he was being interviewed by Gary Groth right after, and he was talking about reading things like Underworld and what a big reader he was. This is his four, panel negative review of Infinite Jest. I'm just thrilled that Michael knew.

Harold: I wonder if there's a way to find out if he read it.

Jimmy: Well, he read a few pages of it is my guess, and then he got sick of it. But, yep, that's exactly what I think.

Harold: Just looking at this visually, we all have in our heads. I think when someone is hearing about Snoopy typing as the author on top of his doghouse. And I was just looking at this, and there's something delightful about Snoopy's little arms where his paws look like the pads and have turned into fingers. But you never. I don't. Have you ever actually seen him with the paws on the typewriter?

Jimmy: On the typewriter.

Harold: He's always got those little short arms that are hovering over the keyboard.

Jimmy: Yeah, it's like Schroeder on the piano, Right?

Harold: Yeah, right. And it's a great look. And it never hit me that, oh, he generally does not show Snoopy, typing. He's thinking or posed above. And does Snoopy ever actually, well, yeah, I guess we have seen things he's typed.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah.

Harold: It's always. It's not. It's not the Red Baron where he's just dreaming he's flying the doghouse. Yeah, I think he is typing, but. But the visual is that he's in that pensive mode where the hands are hovering over the keyboard. And I think it's an amazing look.

Jimmy: Yeah, I do too.

Liz: That doghouse must be awfully tall to be up there in the clouds.

Jimmy: That, is a wild. That third panel. Things are going out of control. Like, one of the things that is slipping in and out of his control at this late stage is scale. which, you know, I get, but that's definitely an example of it.

Michael: I see an unusual choice he made. I wonder if it's trying to cover up something. Panel 3. He almost never puts cast shadows, but he puts a little shadow of the piece of paper that he's holding on the doghouse.

Harold: Yeah, I like that.

Jimmy: That's weird. I actually. Yeah, well, I have definitely. I will say point blank. I have screwed up an outline and occasionally put a cast shadow underneath it so he didn't have to wipe it out. 

May 8 Rerun’s in kindergarten with a little pigtailed haired girl. Little pigtailed girl. And, she says to him, those are nice shoes, Rerun. And Rerun says, they feel good. He stands up and shows them off, saying, my other shoes were always a little tight. I like the color and the soles feel bouncy, and the laces are easy to tie. And the little girl then says to him, when you get a compliment, all you have to say is thank you. And then Rerun calls out to her because she's laughed, and he says, I'm sorry. I've never had a compliment before. 

Jimmy: Oh, poor Rerun. Living in the Van Pelt household, though, I believe that.

Harold: Oh, yeah, yeah, I could see there. Yes, Linus seems to be ignoring him. And Lucy's gonna have some destructive, Criticism.

Jimmy: Yes, definitely some destructive criticism.

Harold: But I don't know. What do you think about the little pigtail girl, who. Who's, socially more awkward here for her to walk away and. And say that to him or that he, went on about his shoes? I kind of think she may be a little more out of line than he is.

Jimmy: I think if this is a standalone incident, she's out of line. if Rerun, has. Well, I guess he's never had a compliment before, so. Yeah, no, I think she should have given him a little bit more free reign if this is his first.

Harold: But it's nice to. She's got a bit of personality. There's a little quirk on her that we're finally getting to see something other than just being a companion.

Jimmy: And we see full on birds nest hair at the end there.

Harold: I like the little paste pot. I don't know. Were they using paste pots in 19? No, I guess they weren't in the late 1990s, probably not.

Jimmy: I can't imagine.

Harold: they were using those print glue sticks. I think by that time. Yeah, that was the thing.

Jimmy: Yeah. By then you even had the purple glue sticks that dried clear.

Harold: Right, right.

Jimmy: Kinds of technological advances.

Harold: Lots of stuff happening there.

May 13th. Peppermint Patty and Marcie are, calling up, their good friend Chuck Charles, because there is a dance coming up in their school. And Marcie's, on the phone and she says, it's the spring dance. Charles, would you like to go with me? And Charlie Brown, ever the smooth operator, says, who is this? And now it's Peppermint Patty Patty on the phone. She's Marcie, Chuck, you blockhead, you can't go with her. You said you'd go with me. And then Marcie takes the phone back and says, I'm a better dancer, Charles. And then Peppermint Patty takes the phone back and says, don't push the envelope, Chuck. To which Marcie says, tango, tango, Charles. And does a little tango maneuver.

Michael: I'm Sorry, but, I missed the reference that last.

Jimmy: I don't think there's any reference. I think she just says  Tango Tango, Charles, and it cracks me up.

Michael: It's not a song or anything?

Jimmy: No, I don't think so. Yeah.

Harold: I love the big smile on Marcie boy. She's. She's enjoying asking him to the dance.

Jimmy: And she knows that it's driving Peppermint Patty Patty's nuts, which is also making her happy.

Harold: Right? Yeah. This is a double win for Marcie here. This is she. She enjoys conflict with Peppermint Patty.

Jimmy: She really does.

Harold: So whose house are they at?

Jimmy: Peppermint Patty?

Harold: You think it's Marcie's house?

Jimmy: No. Maybe Marcie. Well, they got some modern art on the wall.

Harold: yeah. That's what made me wonder. Maybe. Yeah. So that's why Marcie gets first crack at the phone.

Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah. It must be Marcie's house. Yeah, I don't see Peppermint Patty Patty's dad buying some.

Harold: Right.

Jimmy: You know, modern art prints. 

May 20th. okay, so Charlie Brown has arrived at the dance. and his wingman is there, too, and so is Linus. And he says, hi, Charlie Brown. Welcome to the dance. Everyone is here. And Charlie Brown says, I hope we're not late. And then there's three kids at the dance, a girl with black hair and pigtails who says, this isn't a costume ball, is it? Then she also answers her own question, saying, no. And then a little girl who looked at Sally and said, that's the hairstyle for me, says, then who's the little kid in the dog suit? Because Charlie Brown’s with Snoopy. 

Jimmy: now, here's why I picked this. Yeah, I think that's Violet.

Michael: I think that's Violet, too.

Jimmy: Pigtail Violet. Right.

Michael: But what a throwback. She hasn't had that hairstyle forever.

Jimmy: But didn't she once, like, a year or so, like a few episodes ago? Didn't we. Wasn't there a Violet strip where we saw her with pigtails?

Michael: I can't remember.

Jimmy: I think once. So I think we can clearly call, this. This is the final appearance of Violet.

Michael: Okay, I'm going to segue into my morbid commentary.

Jimmy: Oh, no.

Liz: Okay.

Michael: I've been wondering, because in this place where I am getting the strips, they are actually starting to notate the final appearances.

Jimmy: Yes.

Michael: which I find extremely interesting. But it also makes me think, like, okay, I don't know this part of his biography that well, but how aware was he that he might not be around for a long time.

Jimmy: at this Point, I don't think at all, consciously anyway. we don't know behind the scenes, but, you know, what happens is, he has a stroke and then they discover the cancer. So officially, not at all.

Michael: Okay, so we shouldn't infer that that's gonna influence his choice of steps, at this point.

Jimmy: I don't know, because when you go forward, you'll see some weird things that make it feel like maybe there was some sort of understanding on some level. I don't know. yeah, I mean, there's gonna, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of moments of deep sighs. I, think as we, as we read these last strips. But, like, yeah, I mean, officially he didn't know, but I see things like that feel like things are coming full circle. I don't know.

Harold: Yeah, this I, I've read into, and we'll talk about this next episode, but, boy, here he is almost 50 years in, and he's going to some real fever dream places with these characters, and I'm loving it. It's like he's so far in and he's, he just seems to be so free right now with his storytelling and sometimes in ways that I can't make sense of it. it's hard to describe. We'll talk about it more, next time. But it's going to some really interesting places.

Michael: Well, this panel was a good opportunity. If he was conscious of. Okay, this might be the last time I'm seeing this character because Linus is saying everyone is here. He could have filled this whole thing with, you know, Sher and Pig and all the characters who, who are no longer around.

Liz: Yeah, but they'd know who Snoopy was.

Michael: Yeah, but the, the fact that he introduced one new character here, that strange looking girl in the middle, I just realized that is Al, and I think that is indeed Violet.

Liz: No, but they wouldn't say, then who's the little kid in the dog--

Jimmy: Kid in the dog's house suit? yeah, but Sally. It's definitely not Sally now.

Liz: And, I, I don't think it's Violet.

Jimmy: It's Violet. Sshh

Jimmy: No, I, I, it's, it's so strange because she looks exactly like Sally. And But I just realized that kid in the middle was a girl.

Harold: Yeah. And do you think that the little, that kid was supposed to say the response to, to Violet and said no, and, but it's just that's where the lettering hit so far off and was above the Violet character. That's like, okay, she's going to answer herself. Yeah, he didn't want to draw that long pointer.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Thread the needle down to the second character.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: Really. I guess all you had to do or. Well, this was the age of Photoshop. Have your assistant move everything over a quarter of an inch. You can do that, too. But that wasn't going to happen.

Harold: What do you think of Linus's jacket there? He's got a spider spiderweb jacket or something.

Jimmy: You know what? I sort of know what color gray that is. Do you know what I'm talking about? The gray and the salt and pepper gray of sports jackets around that era.

Harold: Oh, I was thinking it was like stained glass. You know, every possible color. So that's interesting.

May 22, we're still at the dance, and Charlie Brown at least has a better suit than he had at the last dance with that weird collar. And he says, I can't believe I'm doing this. I'm walking toward the little. Oh. Cause the little red haired girl is at this dance. We need to point, that out. Sorry. So I'm walking toward the little red haired girl, he says, and he says, I'm going to ask her to dance. I'm getting closer. I'm almost there. I'm. And then, of course, Peppermint Patty and Marcie show up. Chuck, we've been looking for you. Come on, Charles, says Marcie. They're playing the Hokey Pokey. Oh, good grief, says Charlie Brown.

Harold: Poor Charles.

Jimmy: So Marcie and Peppermint Patty certainly haven't, dressed up for this dance, right? Yeah, everybody else is all, you know, jazzed up and they come in their regular outfits.

Harold: Yeah, I guess that's something that Marcie and Peppermint Patty have in common. They don't like dressing up.

Jimmy: Oh, I guess.

Harold: and Charlie Brown, well, it's weird he doesn't have that, that famous little ellipse  around the, eye on this first panel. It's missing one.

Jimmy: Oh, yeah, I guess that's true.

Harold: But yeah, he. So he's going to. He's going to ask. Or at least he thinks he's going to ask. He probably two seconds later would have chickened out anyway. Yeah, but it's a reminder of why he keeps putting off Peppermint Patty and Marcie. Because in his mind, he is still. Well, where. Is still pining for.

Liz: Where's Emily? Wasn't she the. His dance partner? Is that her name?

Jimmy: She's doing hard time. I didn't want to go down that road. But yeah, Emily had. There are some shenanigans. I don't know. 

May 25, Charlie Brown and Linus are still at the dance. And Linus comes running up, says, Charlie Brown, where have you been? And Charlie Brown's refreshing himself with some punch. And he says, I've been doing the Hokey Pokey with Patty and Marcie. Listen, they're playing a foxtrot. Then Charlie Brown says, now I can ask the little red haired girl to dance. And Linus says, I think someone is ahead of you. And then we see a beautiful silhouette of the little red haired girl dancing with Snoopy. And we can't see who she is or what she looks like, but there she is. And Snoopy says to himself, Daisy and Gatsby danced. I remember his graceful, conservative foxtrot.

Michael: Well, we know what her hairstyle is.

Jimmy: She's got a bob.

Harold: So now I've got a theory that the little red haired girl is the sister of Lydia.

Liz: Yeah.

Jimmy: Yeah. Oh, that would be a riot.

Liz: I think Charlie Brown should use panel two as a headshot.

Harold: Or a mug shot..

Jimmy: on his LinkedIn.

Liz: No, it's a nice angle. He's got this dapper suit on. He looks great.

Harold: He could always sign it and send it off to his fans. But for those of you listening at home, the, the fourth panel we mentioned, silhouette. The silhouette of Snoopy and little Red Haired girl is done in zipatone.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Against a super dark night sky where there's bushes. So he's taken her off onto the, the patio. And for some reason there's a rose bush on the patio. But it's an amazing looking panel. Nothing like he's ever done before. It's worth checking out.

Jimmy: It's beautiful. It's really. If you're gonna do this, if you're gonna not. Well, I mean, he doesn't show her, but if you're gonna get close to showing her, that's as good a way as you can do it.

Harold: Yeah. And obviously it's a special moment that he does it. So he, he figured out something memorable.

Jimmy: And having her with Snoopy, is there something cute about that as well? Very sweet. Poor Charlie Brown didn't get to dance with her though. 

May 31st. So this is a draw, a small drawing of Snoopy, in GI clothes. And he is, like Zelig morphed into, or what we would say, I guess, photoshopped into a colorized photograph of Eisenhower, rallying the troops at D Day. And it says June 6, 1944. To remember. And that's the entirety of the strip, and it is a photograph.

Michael: Strange, but the colorization is only a little green added.

Jimmy: Yeah, you're right. Yes.

Michael: Which is pretty primitive.

Jimmy: I wonder who did that. I'm certainly. Schulz wasn't going in and coloring this thing in Photoshop. I assume that he had Paige Braddock as his assistant at this point.

Jimmy: I would love to know exactly what was going on there.

Harold: Well, it's interesting. It looks like they use some sort of a, Would this be a posterization effect in Photoshop where you kind of smooth out the faces in the background so that.

Jimmy: Okay, so if I could go back to Photoshop, then this is, Probably the oil paint filter.

Harold: Oh, yeah.

Jimmy: Applied to it, and then it looks. Then here's how. If I were to achieve this effect with the black and white photo to try to mimic this exactly, it would be the oil paint or fresco. Not fresco. Fresco was a little harsher. Probably the oil paint, filter just applied over the whole photograph. And then I'd go with a layer over it in multiply mode and just paint the green areas that I wanted. and then that sky is absolutely just the cloud filter in primitive Photoshop.

Harold: It's so interesting that here he is 48 years in, and he is taking a photograph of an actual moment of a war and dropping it into Peanuts. And then just to have a drawing of Snoopy looking up at General Eisenhower is pretty wild. We've already had Snoopy talking to General Washington during the Revolutionary War, but we never see him. We're seeing. This is a first. Right. To see a photograph of a human in Peanuts.

Liz: Is this the first time?

Jimmy: Is this the first time. Is this the first time Eisenhower appears?

Michael: This is also the last Eisenhower appearance cameo.

Jimmy: This is around the time my dad would start talking more about World War II, which he didn't talk about for years. This time, a friend of his, a buddy from the Navy, came and was showing those pictures I told you guys about of Hiroshima and stuff. I think they're all getting to that age where, they were finally kind of willing to process.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: That. I mean, we should, as a society, really think about how much we whine about our lives and contemplate D Day.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: You know, I mean, we had the worst of. Well, maybe not the worst of us. But a lot of us have it pretty good still. Could you imagine if me and Harold had to. Or, Michael had to storm the beaches at Normandy?

Harold: Oh.

June 9th. Rerun and Charlie Brown are hanging out at the thinking wall. And Rerun says to Charlie Brown, mom won't let me have a dog. And then he says to Charlie Brown, how come your mom let you have a dog? Which Charlie Brown replies, I don't know. There's a thoughtful silent panel, and Rerun says, where'd you get your mom?

Harold: He's trying every angle.

Michael: We've never seen Rerun at the thinking wall.

Jimmy: Oh, no.

Michael: Is this the first debut? And that boy, he's hoisted up there. How is he on level with Charlie Brown?

Jimmy: Little Woodstock and Conrad are holding him up.

Harold: Giving him a boost. Yeah, it's a funny. It's a funny strip.

Jimmy: Yeah, I like.

Harold: I really like Rerun adding a different flavor to this, to the later strips.

Jimmy: Rerun completely saves the. The latter half of the 90s. And Peanuts. I. I think he is so fresh and fun and. Yeah, it just. It just really works. And it needed some,

Harold: I agree. I. I was not expecting that.

Jimmy: Oh, boy, Here we go. 

June 14th. It's a Sunday, and it looks like Rerun is joining the baseball team. Good luck, says Lucy as Rerun goes off to the field. And then those are, those two panels that get cut out of some newspapers. Then the strip starts up for real. On the second panel, Charlie Brown's on the pitcher's mound, and he says, Rerun, what are you doing here? And he says, I came to play right field. Lucy can't make it today, so I'm her replacement. He continues, you don't have to worry. She gave me her cap and glove and taught me all about the game. She said. She taught me everything I need to know. And he goes out to right field, and he can't even see out of his hat, by the way. And he yells, throw the ball over the plate, you blockhead. And then Charlie Brown says, I'm glad she taught him everything. 

Jimmy: It looks like Rerun lost the top of his head in some horrible accident. 

Harold: Kind of got a Beetle Bailey vibe going there.

Jimmy: Yeah, but if Beetle Bailey lost the top third of his head, because it's got. Something's going on there.

Harold: Yeah. And Charlie Brown's got a blue glove.

Jimmy: Well, they. They still have. They make blue gloves.

Harold: They do. From Blue Cows or,

Jimmy: Yeah. They're all blue cows. Yeah, they dye ‘em. A couple of my friends had them when they played for the Girardville Dodgers.

Harold: I don't know. That's. That's pretty flashy for Charlie Brown to. It is.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: But the little overalls on. On Rerun.

Jimmy: Yeah, it's pretty. Those yellow overalls are very. He Rerun has a 90s vibe. Schulz wasn't making him out of whole cloth. I think he saw some little grandkids running around in their ridiculous 90s get ups. Society had just reached its peak and was starting to go on this downhill run. 

Let's take a break, get a little, refreshments, and then come back, answer the mail and do some more comic strips. Sound good? 

Liz: Yep.

Michael: Yep.

Jimmy: All right.

BREAK

VO: Hi, everyone. I just want to take a moment to remind you that all three hosts are cartoonists themselves and their work is available for sale. You can find links to purchase books by Jimmy, Harold and Michael on our website. You can also support the show on Patreon or buy us a mud pie. Check out the store link on unpackingpeanuts.com.

Jimmy: And we're back. Hey, Liz, I'm hanging out in the mailbox. Do we got anything?

Liz: We do. We heard from so many people. Nobody wants you to worry.

Jimmy: Yay.

Liz: so we heard from a couple of people who haven't written before, too. Kevin. Harrison writes in regard to comic strips that refer to themselves. The best comic strip, and probably one of the first that refers back to itself, is a Superman Sunday strip from the Siegel and Schuster years. Lois and Clark go to a matinee only for a Superman short to be shown before the movie.

Jimmy: Oh, yes.

Liz: Clark then has to continually distract Lois so she doesn't learn his secret identity, which the short reveals. It was very clever and dates back to the 40s.

Harold: So everybody knows everybody in the theater. That's funny. So they. They'd all turn and look at him.

Jimmy: He's casual. Like what?

Harold: I don't think they thought that one through. I don't know. But it's pretty cool.

Jimmy: I remember, seeing that. Yes.

Michael: Well, that's. There is a meta character. a very famous meta character, which is a comic strip that has a comic strip character who is extremely famous.

Jimmy: Oh, I know who you're talking about.

Michael: Who? Can you guess?

Jimmy: Fearless Fosdick.

Michael: Yes.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: Yep. You know, and Lil Abner, he.

Harold: Was the Dick Tracy parody that became super popular. And so Al Capp kept going there. 

Jimmy: I'll tell you this. I think Fearless Fosdick is funnier-- That it was the funniest part of the labner.

Harold: Yeah. I used to own a Fearless Fosdick, strip original.

Jimmy: What?

Harold: Yeah, it was gifted to me by a guy at a place I worked because he knew I was into comics and his dad had-- He had a Pogo and he had a Fearless Fosdick and he had a Long Sam. And Long Sam was a spin off strip from the L’il Abner. So he. He gave those to me. It was really nice of him. 

Michael: And you threw them out.

Harold: Actually, I. I sold the Pogo at a moment when I needed some funds. and it was a. It was a McCarthy era one. It was kind of. Kind of a seminal strip.

Jimmy: I remember that.

Harold: Yeah. But, actually, I may still have Fearless Fosdick. I. Yeah, I think I do. I think I have Long Sam.

Jimmy: That's cool.

Harold: Yep. So that. It's just amazing to be around original art from people who created stuff. As a cartoonist as there's something amazing to just hold a piece that was the piece that was the thing that got into the newspaper and you get to see the pencil lines that were erased and if there's anything written on the back and. Yeah, that's super special. So, I'm very grateful to have those.

Liz: And Pete Andrew Arances wrote, for the discussion where cartoon characters know that they are cartoon characters. There's one episode of this is America, Charlie Brown, where the Peanuts gang is exploring a history museum. And there's a scene where they show the history of cartoons and comics. where we saw that there's a peanut strip where Charlie Brown kicks the football in a peanut series episode. And then Lucy questions why both of them are there. And Charlie Brown says he doesn't have any idea.

Jimmy: Wow. This is America, Michael, if you ever want to have your brain totally explode, you could watch some of those. I've only ever seen one. I've seen one where they're the pilgrims on the Mayflower.

Michael: Really?

Jimmy: Yeah. It's a scene, man. I don't know.

Harold: It was like the first animated miniseries ever. I think it was crazy.

Jimmy: Oh, really?

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: Okay.

Liz: And, Steven Edwards writes in regard to the query, cartoonists aren't real people. That might be suggesting that to a large ish degree, they live within their own heads. And the strips they populate with their ideas, removing themselves to some degree from real life. Not necessarily only consciously so they can work, but also by dint of their heads wiring.

Harold: Well, anyone uses dint? Come on. I'm with you.

Liz: Our listeners are very smart. Lovers aren't real people might be Schulz saying, unrestrained and uninterrupted happiness isn't possible and doesn't really exist, which is in line with the philosophical bent of the strip.

Jimmy: Hey, those are both good observations. I, you know, I. I love that this comic strip can inspire thoughts and observations like that, and he's willing to put that sort of stuff in and, you know, that there's enough room for people to put themselves in and think about things and come to their own conclusions. That's a real gift that an artist can give. And I think those are great observations.

Harold: Yeah.

Liz: And super listener Deb Perry writes, a lot of wonderful thoughts. I'm going to just read a little section of it. but she's been thinking a great deal. inspired by the great Peanuts Reread and response to the question, what people consider peak Peanuts after having read through decades of them. I think that, at least visually, the period from approximately 70 to 75 is what I automatically picture when I think of Peanuts. Woodstock, Peppermint Patty, Marcie and Sally had all become major players at this point, and Schulz's art had a tight, appealing line to it, with occasional hints of his tremors to come. As for the writing, I'd go back further to about 55, 56, when the characters seem to be finding their voices and becoming less like, interchangeable L’il Folks magazine cartoons.

Harold: Interesting. I love to hear people's perspectives on this. And it's also interesting, given on, our ages, you know, there's some people who might be listening to this who weren't even born, you know, when the very first strip came out. And so your experience of the strip is all after the fact. And in some, in some cases, those who chose to put out something that may have come out in the era that you started to read, like I say, mid-60s. Well, I wasn't born, for the strips that I like the most, but they were the ones coming out in the paperbacks when I was, like, 7-9 years old.

Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah. I think that modular idea that we talked about when we're talking about the poetics of Peanuts is really important, because when you have something that has 17,897 components, you know, put together for 50 years, everybody read it a different way. Everybody read it during a different era in different formats, and everybody kind of has their own Peanuts, which is another extremely, cool thing about it.

Harold: And unique and different cultures latch onto different things. It's fascinating.

Jimmy: Yep.

Liz: And finally, John McNaught writes, I’m at 1972 in my reread. And Snoopy's world famous grocery store impression instantly brought to mind this Alan Partridge scene from the fantastic mockumentary Scissored Isle. I'm not sure how far outside of Britain Alan has traveled, but I thought you might enjoy him getting into Snoopy's world famous grocery clerk headspace. And he gave us a link. And the video is hysterical. I want to learn more who this guy is. I had never seen it before.

Harold: Yeah, it's Steve Coogan. my wife, in particular is a huge Anglophile, and certainly for music and comedy. And so we've seen the Alan Partridge, series. He plays this part. He's a radio dj. He's kind of this personality who is a little past his prime and the peak of his fame. And he's not always the most talented. he's a great character. Anyway, Steve Coogan's really an amazing, talent and definitely worth checking out. Alan Partridge is one of those cringe kind of shows like the Office, for those of you who know that that's very cool.

Jimmy: I cannot wait to check that out.

Liz: And that's it for the mail. Except for a bunch of really creative listeners who sent us, picks for Peanuts Beatles songs.

Jimmy: Oh, well, now I have some too. and they are not all Beatles songs. Super, listener Charles K. wrote. And he gave us 10.

Liz:  Shout out to Sarah Wilson and Tim Young for their Beatles suggestions.

Jimmy: Might as well throw them out there. What did they suggest?

Liz: All right, by character, let's see. Sarah says for Charlie Brown, she has three. You've got to hide your love away, please, Mr. Postman, yesterday. Oh, and four and misery.

Jimmy: Oh, wow. Well, Charles K had three for Charlie Brown, too. How Soon Is now by the Smiths. tied with King of Pain by the police and Alone Again, naturally by Gilbert o' Sullivan.

Liz: Let me see. Sarah says Sally is. Don't bother me, it's all too much, and rain.

Jimmy: Oh, okay.

Harold: Yeah. How about Snoopy, you don't own me.

Liz: Tim says Sally's song is Tell me why. Snoopy is Paperback Writer, says Tim.

Jimmy: Oh, that's a good one.

Liz: and of course, hey, Bulldog. But if it was changed to hey, Beagle. Sarah says I am the walrus for Snoopy. I'm Only Sleeping. And, oh, she also says Paperback Writer. Violet and Patty, she said. She said, Shermy was Nowhere Man. This is Sarah. Woodstock. And your bird can sing.

Jimmy: Oh, that's a good one.

Liz: And, Tim says flying for Woodstock. Peppermint Patty is I'm so tired. And Tim says, don't let me down for Peppermint Patty. and there are many more. I mean, Sarah even comes up with songs for Tapioca Pudding and Thibault.

Harold: Wow.

Jimmy: Well, we also got, I will say Charles, also wrote a pair of songs. One for Lucy and one for Schroeder. And Lucy's for Schroeder was One Way or Another by Blondie, and Schroeder's to Lucy was Leave Me Alone by Michael Jackson. 

That was a lot of fun, guys. If you're out there and you have a Beatles or other related song that you think would fit a Peanuts character theme, you can just get in touch with us. And the way you get in touch with us is you can go over to unpackingpeanuts.com and sign up for that great Peanuts reread and get that one email a month from us. You can also email us@unpackingpeanutsmail.com or you could, text, like Charles did here, or, call our hotline. That number is 717-219-4162. And we would love to hear from you, because remember, I worry when I don't hear. So we'll hear from you guys next time. More. And, until then, how about we go right back to the strips?

Liz: Let's do it.

Harold: Yep.

June 15th. Woodstock is atop a birdbath, and he's holding a shepherd's staff, and he is parting the water in the birdbath. And Snoopy says, that was good. Moses would have been proud of you.

Michael: Now, what would inspire somebody to draw this thing? What was. He had a blank piece of paper.

Jimmy: And he went, I know, I know.

Michael: Woodstock is Moses.

Harold: I think that's exactly it. He probably is messing around with a little cane or something or a little Bo Peep thing. And then all of a sudden, he's Woodstock with holding it. It's like, wait a second.

Liz: And would anybody identify that as parted waters? if he didn't have the thought balloon.

Jimmy: I think I would have.

Liz: Yeah, I just thought it was like making splashes.

Harold: Yeah, I, I, that's interesting. I'm, yeah, if that was just on a tote bag, you know, people go, what's going on here?

Jimmy: A tote bag. That would be amazing. That I would absolutely get that.

Harold: See, we just, we just keep adding all these wonderful things for Peanuts Worldwide to license out. I'm coming off the licensing expo.

Jimmy: This  looks very weirdly cropped. Do you know what I mean? Like. Like, it feels like he never does something where. Like, their feet are right on the line of the panel, but Snoopy's feet are. But then there's that little weird white space. You don't see the bottoms of the bushes or trees, and there's no horizon line. It really looks like it was reformatted and moved down wrong. I mean, I don't. That's not what happened, but that's what it looks like to me.

June 19th. Snoopy is sitting underneath a spindly little tree with only a few branches, and Woodstock comes flying in. He lands on one of the branches, which bends it down from his weight, but then rockets him back out like a slingshot. And Snoopy is shocked. His ears go flying in the sky. and then Woodstock, slowly, dazed, walks back to Snoopy and complains to him. And Snoopy says, I agree. Stupid tree.

Michael: I always blame trees for most of my problems.

Harold: Oh.

Jimmy: Oh, man. I love the panel in the middle there with Woodstock getting shot back out and with Snoopy's ears going straight up in the air. So funny.

Harold: That's great.

June 25th. We're, with Peppermint Patty and Marcie again, and Peppermint. Patty is looking in the mirror, and she says, what a face. I'll never be beautiful. And Marcie says, you will someday, sir. All of your features will settle into their proper sizes and places, and you'll be beautiful. And Peppermint Patty says, what about my hands? Marcie says, someday I'll have pretty hands, sir. And then Peppermint Patty says, what about a certain friend of mine? And Marcie says, she'll be gorgeous. 

Jimmy: I love Marcie seeing, her gain such self assurance and, you know, such feelings of self worth. That's great.

Harold: Yeah. And it's cool. We just had two strips in a row of really showing the friendship in Peanuts between characters. it's interesting that the concept of friendship. I'm just trying to think right now. Certainly in the world of comic strips, what other strips focus on, specifically friendship between characters? I'm trying to think, and it seems like an area you would have loads and loads of things.

Michael: Yeah, I don't think Pogo. I mean, they're always, like, sitting around playing banjos and having picnics and stuff.

Harold: But they also seem to be super. Well, I mean, here you could say it in Peanuts as well. They seem to be kind of disconnected from each other. They're all in their own weird worlds. That's. That's kind of a overlap, because you're.

Jimmy: Saying like, for example, strips are centered around a family or a workplace or.

Harold: A husband and wife or. But you know, that just friends. I mean, I think the kids strips

Jimmy:  zits, obviously. 

Harold: That's cool. Yeah. And I think it's a strangely underutilized, way to focus on though.

Jimmy: Doonesbury-- I mean, that's a, it's a preeminent example. That's just friends for the most.

Harold: I don't even think of anybody who's friends in, in Doonesbury. Who's friends in Doonesbury.

Jimmy: All of them. They lived in Walden and the. Like Mike and BD or roommates or what do you call that? That's like the whole.

Harold: It's so weird. Yeah. I, don't think of friendship in that. I think they're, they're focused on other things. But yeah, I'm sure it's there. I just. That's not the part I remember.

Jimmy: Yeah. Mike Zonker, B.D. yeah, they're all friends. Boopsie.

Harold: Boopsie.

June 30th, Rerun and Snoopy are playing one of their famous card games. And Rerun says, I have three queens, two jacks, four tens and one eight. And Snoopy says, I have two aces, four kings, three twos and one nine. And then they both say, so here goes. So here goes. And then they throw all the cards up in the air and they both say, Rerun says, and Snoopy thinks tie game.

Harold: Friendship number three in a row.

Michael: I like that game. What are the rules?

Harold: I like it. That you tie every time and smile at each other. That, those are the rules. But that's adorable. And I love these strips with Rerun and Snoopy and I also kind of love. We always talk about unrequited love and people at odds with one another. And here we've had three strips in a row where these characters are. Are kind of. I don't know, you just, in. In alignment with one another, I guess is the best way to put it. It's not the best way to put it. The only way I could think of. But it's. It's really delightful and charming and it seems like Schulz is enjoying this, even though. And I think this is genius of him as well, is he has so many strips where Rerun wants to do something with Snoopy and he's denied, denied, denied. That's so classic Peanuts. And then all of a sudden they're together and having a blast. It's like, because it's been denied, it makes the moments that are together More special, you know, And Schulz seems to know that.

Jimmy: Yeah, Poor Rerun not getting his own. Although it's nice though, that, he has Snoopy. That's it.

Harold: Yeah. And boy. That's so. That's such a cute drawing of Snoopy with this with his mouth wide open, smiling, and his. His little paw extended with the cards flying over them. That's just adorable. That's a tote bag.

Jimmy: Yeah. 

July 6th. Lucy is skipping rope and Snoopy is behind her, mimicking her. Panel 2. Lucy groks that something's up and turns around, but Snoopy stops, so playing none the wiser. Then it starts up again in panel three, but Lucy's too quick this time and turns around and sees Snoopy's ears are still straight up in the air. And she says, I knew it. Your ears are still jumping.

Michael: This is a callback for 45 years.

Jimmy: 45 year callback, yep.

Harold: Wow.

Michael: Snoopy's. One of his first non dog like traits. Was doing imitations of people.

Harold: Yep. Yeah.

Michael: Which he stopped doing. He would do people and then he would do animals. Just annoy everybody and definitely did.

Jimmy: Did, Lucy a number of times. Very cool to see that back.

Harold: I have to ask you guys, is this a photocopy panel one and three, because it looks crazy similar.

Jimmy: Yes, it is. No, it's not. No, the. No, it's not. The look at the grass and the shadows are different. And Lucy's. It's real subtle, but the eye is a little bit different and the blacks in her hair are a little bit different.

Harold: I'm not seeing that versus loose. I see it for the grass, but I don't see it for Snoopy and Lucy. That seems identical.

Michael: It is a photocopy. Look at the collar. Snoopy's collar on 1 and 3. It extends just a little here.

Harold: There's no way he could reach.

Jimmy: Oh, yeah. Look at the ridges on the, on the foot.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: yeah, you're right.

Harold: Just couldn't be reproduced.

Jimmy: So then they went. He went in and added a few little flourishes here and there, I think.

Harold: To, to make it look slightly different for the, for the, for the grass. But that's interesting. I didn't know that he ever did that, so. But I don't, I don't, I don't hold against him. That's absolutely appropriate that you'd have exactly the same panel.

Michael: Well, we'd have to go look at the original because it'd be a paste over.

Jimmy: Yeah, but I mean, I think you're right. It's got to be yeah. The grass is different, though. But the. The figures are the same.

Harold: Yeah. it's just. It's too impossible to recreate the quirkiness of those lines.

Jimmy: Yeah. 

July 11th. Linus and Snoopy are sitting on a bench outside the courthouse. Snoopy is in his lawyer garb. And Snoopy is thinking. I'll never forget the expression on the other attorney's face. He saw I had this brand new yellow legal pad with lines on it. There's a lot of jealousy among attorneys.

Harold: Because his legal pad has no lines on it.

Jimmy: I just, I just get, loving stationary, that's all.

Liz: Amen.

Jimmy: I love stationary. The look of Snoopy smiling at his brand new yellow legal pad. I totally get that.

Harold: And the whole stationers unions like writing. Could we please have this original? The lawyer's like you've got plenty.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Stationary people that were going nuts over this one.

Liz: And what is Linus eating?

Jimmy: I was just gonna ask. What do you think Linus is eating?

Michael: Snicker snacks, maybe?

Jimmy: Yeah. Like, maybe there's a Snicker snacks trail mix kind of thing.

Harold: That could be. Yeah. Chex mix. No, it's a square bag. So he was. He brought it from home and dropped it in there. Right.

Michael: It's kind of popcorn-y. 

Liz: Yeah, I was thinking maybe popcorn 

Michael: But who would eat popcorn sitting outside?

Harold: It's unheard of.

Jimmy: It's Michael's rules. No, the whole world doesn't work now. You ate popcorn outside.

Harold: Yeah. Well, what's in Snoopy's little sack lunch, you think? What do lawyers take to their, lawyerly things?

Jimmy: No, I think it's going to be like a little stuffed animal or whatever. It's not. Wouldn't be his lunch. I think it would be something.

Harold: Woodstock is ---

Jimmy: Yeah. Right.

July 14th. Rerun, comes to Charlie Brown's house and says, I don't suppose your dog wants to come out and play. And Charlie Brown says, no, I don't suppose he does. And Rerun says, I suppose it was a waste of time to ask. And Charlie Brown says, I suppose it was. And then Rerun says, do you suppose I might ask again tomorrow? And Charlie Brown says, I suppose you might. And then he's back with Snoopy in the beanbag chair watching tv. And Charlie Brown says, I suppose you could guess who that was. And Snoopy says, I suppose I could.

Michael: He really gets into these weird quirks about the English language, which you don't ever think about. But, boy, this is very common to talk like this.

Harold: Yeah, I suppose it is.

Jimmy: The thing I've been fascinated by recently is. “Yeah. No.” Isn't that a weird thing?

Liz: I have so many places that I have edited that I noticed that in the recordings. Everybody says it.

Jimmy: Everybody says it. Yeah. No. Ah. It's really a weird thing to say.

Harold: Yeah. I like that drawing with Snoopy. Looks like he's completely nestled into this, beanbag chair. He's, like, engulfed in it.

Liz: It looks like he's driving it.

Harold: It does. It's like a hovercraft.

Jimmy: The fact that Snoopy doesn't always want to play with Rerun, I actually like, because he is Charlie Brown's dog. And, you know, he'd prefer to sit there in the beanbag chair with his owner and watch tv, but he does. But he will play with Rerun. He will. He's like an older brother almost, you know?

Harold: Yeah. That he has so often an amazingly great time with Rerun. They have these magical moments. It is special. Yeah.

August 5th. So Rerun and Lucy are sitting at the breakfast table, and Rerun says, and this little kid with the dog jumped over the fence. And Lucy says, do you have to talk all the time? Do you always have to be so noisy? And then Rerun butters his toasts and then looks at Lucy and says, am I buttering too loud for you? And then it's, happy birthday, Amy.

Liz: Aw.

Jimmy: You know who doesn't say, aww. when they say Happy birthday, Amy? The other four kids. Where's their birthday greetings, Sparky. Happy birthday, Monty.

Harold: So those of you who remember, we did an episode, some years back in 1961. Am I buttering too loud for you? Was a gag. And you can see with that, Happy birthday, Amy. Maybe that's why he does it a second time, because he said so few of the gags came from actual incidents that happened with his children. And he did say that he was inspired from an incident with Amy, and that's. I guess he wanted to call it back because he wanted to wish her happy birthday. He did it a second time with Rerun, which is kind of sweet.

Jimmy: Yeah. Very cute. 

August 11th. Linus is reading a comic book, and Lucy is having none of it. She snatches it away from him and says, you did it again. You took my comic books without asking me. These are my comic books, and I don't want you touching them. If you do it again, I'm going to hit you right over the head. She walks away, and then Linus calls out after her, I'm glad we had this discussion. 

Jimmy: I like that Lucy is still reading comics in 1998, probably like issue 65 of Spawn, you know, 

Michael: How can she afford it? 

Harold: It's an expensive hobby. That's why she can't afford anything other than that sweatshirt.

Jimmy: Yeah. There were very few kids reading, comics probably in the late 90s. I think we had come off the Image boom. But between 96, the end of the 90s was a rough time for comics. I think that was when Marvel was going out of business or was, bankrupt anyway.

Harold: Well, I mean, Jimmy and I started an organization with John Gallagher in 2004 called Kids Love Comics. And that name was to tell adults that kids love comics because even within our own industry. I remember sitting at a post mortem San Diego Comic Con event and all these people were sitting, I don't know, I think Jeff Smith was even in the room. And, and we were talking about how we'd lost kids for reading comics. They'd all moved on to video games and this and that. And I remember saying in that meeting, it's like, no, we haven't, we haven't lost kids. We've just stopped making comics and putting them in places where kids are, they love comics. And that's what started us thinking, hey, we need to create an organization and let the world know that if we make comics for kids and we get them to the places where they are, we're going to have a renaissance in comics. And boy, Jimmy was like at the forefront of doing this because really the only place you could sell comic books in this era because he started Amelia not too long after the strip came out.

Jimmy: Yeah, 2001.

Harold: Yeah. Was to put it into comic book shops. And where, who was in comic book shops at the time? you know, 40, 50 year old men who wanted to read superheroes. And, and for the most part. And so it was a struggle because there was no place for them. The book publishers hadn't discovered it yet. The children's book publishers didn't know graphic novels. We'd lost the spinner racks and the grocery stores. And it just was a time when kids comics didn't have an outlet. And so, not many people were creating for it because there was no way to reach your audience. And I'm so glad that's changed. It's amazing. It's a thrill now to look back 25 years later and see the explosion of amazing kids comics. And I will say that one of the reasons the quality of those is so high compared to say, what we grew up with in comic books is because librarians were the ones who were the first to jump on board, buy those, curate them, and say, these are the ones we want to promote. And that started the whole path of this incredible literary world of kids comics that we have now.

Liz: yay librarians.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: Amen and to all of that. And you know, it's, it's, it's such a dominant part of the comic book industry that the comic book industry pretends it doesn't exist still. It's so funny. And I saw a video online where it was like, Bone sales versus like the rest of the comic book industries. And the thing was like, kids are reading all this comic these comics and they're not reading these superheroes. Where do we go wrong? It's like, have you looked at your crappy comics? It's no mystery. Why keep anyway.

Harold: Oh man. What I love about this strip is that lettering. Man, that's clean and it's bold. He is such an amazing letter. Despite what he's going through, despite what he's struggling, this is an incredibly clean strip. You could shrink this down to almost to the size of a postage stamp and stack it on top of itself and you could still read it. Yeah, it reads so incredibly well. And this is a good day for him because the faces and the lines are just so clean. And here we are in 1998. I love it.

Jimmy: Well, you know what? If I could quote Linus. I'm glad we had this discussion. Let's have another one next week.

Liz: Let's do that.

Jimmy: Until then, there's a couple different ways you can keep this fantastic conversation going. First, go over to Unpacking Peanuts. Sign up for the great Peanuts reread. If you want to, give us a call, 717-219-4162. If you want to write us an email, it's unpackingpeanutsmail.com and if you want to follow us on, good old social media, we're unpackpeanuts on Instagram and threads and npackingpeanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. So with all that said for Michael, Harold and Liz, this is Jimmy saying, be of good cheers.

Michael: Yes, be of good cheer.

Liz: Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner, music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukrala Clark. For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads, Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, BlueSky and YouTube. For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.