Sidekicks #2 - She's Eudorable

Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. This is Unpacking Peanuts, and today we're doing another episode of our season of Sidekicks and Second Bananas. And I'll be your host for the proceedings. My name's Jimmy Gownley. I'm also a cartoonist. You can find all my work now over at gvillecomics, at substack.com and you can make sure you order those brand new 25th anniversary editions of Amelia Rules. 

Joining me, as always, are, my pals, co hosts and fellow cartoonists. He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People, as well as for this very podcast. He's the co creator of the original comic book price guide, the original editor for Amelia Rules, and the creator of such great strips as Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells, and Tangled River. It's Michael Cohen.

Michael: Say hey.

Jimmy: And he is the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, former Vice President for Archie Comics, and the creator of the Instagram sensation Sweetest Beasts, Harold Buchholz.

Harold: Hello.

Jimmy: And making sure we stay out of trouble and keeping everything running smoothly is our producer and editor, Liz Sumner.

Liz: Howdy.

Jimmy: All right, guys, we are back. So today we're going to be talking about a real obscure corner of the Peanuts universe, but one that does have its fans. I noticed as I was doing research, we're going to be talking about the relationship between Sally and good old Eudora. And so, what the original plan. Well, at least my original plan for this episode was, was. All right, I want to see just Sally as a sidekick. What's Sally like? It's Charlie Brown's sister. What's Sally like as Linus's sweet baboo? What's Sally like with Eudora? And then I just got to the Eudora strips and I thought, no, let's just do this. We're just going to do basically a Eudora episode, as her being a sidekick to Sally. But it did make me think, as I was looking at all these strips, you know, how the characters. In this instance, it was Sally, but it could be really any of the characters, how they are both consistent and yet are able to change based on who they're interacting with. You know, Sally is consistently Sally, but she acts differently around Linus than she does around Eudora. she definitely acts different around Charlie Brown than she does Eudora. You know, she's learning from Charlie Brown. And she's kind of like the leader or the teacher with Eudora. What do you guys think about that? Is that. Is that something that's. I know it happens in life and I know it happens in art, but I don't know how often it happens in comic strips. What do you guys think?

Michael: Well, that's good writing. Yeah. Because I think. I'm sure everybody does that.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Michael: And, you know, sometimes you get trapped in a certain personality mode when you're around people and they don't know the real you because you have this little fake personality you use with them. Frankly, I have to admit, confit my confession, I could not remember who Eudora was.

Jimmy: Oh, I couldn't either at first. I couldn't either.

Michael: Yeah, you mentioned that. And I'm going anyway. Yeah, she was a good character. And I, don't. I can't remember if she lasted beyond this sequence.

Jimmy: No, she, she. I mean, she comes in now and again. Yes. But like, she makes a big splash right here in the late 70s and then sort of fades into existence. I like this character so much when we were doing the original reread that I stole her look, intentionally, and put it in Tanner Rocks as the bass player in the band.

Harold: That's cool.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Yeah. I mean, and the fact that she's. She's named. We know she's named after a real life person. I don't know. Did we go into this when we did this?

Jimmy: I believe we did, but you can do it again. Okay.

Harold: Well, she's named after Eudora Welty, apparently. They say there's no record of Schulz and Eudora Welty knowing each other. Other than. He said he was standing in line at an event, like, I guess they're going to a dinner, and he was standing in line with Eudora Welty. And that, was a high point of his life. So maybe he got to put a few words in, but. And she, you know, she's a contemporary. Right. So she, roughly born in 1909 and. And passed away in 2001. So very close to when Schulz passed away, but a longer life. And she was a writer and wrote a lot of amazing stuff and she won. This is crazy. She won an O. Henry Award in 1941, 42 and 43. That's a good, That's a good run in O. Henry Awards. And then she got another one in the late 60s, so she was still going at it and got a Pulitzer Prize for fiction. So, I mean, she's super awarded for her writing.

Jimmy: And was she known for wearing a hat?

Harold: Not that I know of.

Liz: Was she a Southern writer?

Harold: Yes. Jackson, Mississippi.

Liz: I remember that Schulz's biographer, Rita Grimsley Johnson, was talking about Schulz having a soft spot for Southern women. Southern writers.

Jimmy: Something like this.

Harold: Yeah, right.

Jimmy: That is true. That is true. Well, this is fun, because I really liked seeing Sally, you know, through this, this lens with Eudora. And then also just there's something about the late 70s strips, before it turns into the 80s, that really reminds me of my childhood. It's that. That Bad News Bears slightly grungy feeling that I really, really like. So with all that said, if you guys want to just start, we can go ahead and start on these Sally and Eudora strips. What I decided to do is just. We're going to focus on the, the first sequence that introduces Eudora. Eudora and Sally. It can't. And if you guys are okay, I say we could just get right to that.

Liz: Let's, do it. 

Harold: Sure.

Jimmy: All right, now, if you guys want to follow along, there's a couple things you should do. The first thing you need to do is go over to unpacking peanuts.com and sign up for the great Peanuts reread. That will get you one email a month that will let you know what we're up to and what strips we're going to be covering so that you can. You can follow along. And if you have any other questions or you just want to reach out to us, generally, you could go while you're over there. You can email us@unpackingpeanutsmail.com. 

June 12, 1978. Sally is rolling up a sleeping bag in her room, a scowl on her face, and Charlie Brown is watching her. And Sally says, don't ask me where I'm going. I'm going to camp. That's where I'm going. So don't ask me. She picks up some items from her desk, her dresser, and then she turns to Charlie Brown and says, why am I going? Don't ask me. Because I have to. That's why. And then she stomps out of the room screaming, so don't ask me. And then Charlie Brown says, have a nice time.

Michael: Yeah, I really like Sally.

Jimmy: Sally doesn't like being told what to do. Right.

Liz: Who does, really?

Michael: I think she's really an original character.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Michael: It's not that she's grouchy or a fuss budget. She's just kind of angry at the whole world and her place as a kid, you know, kind of being a, helpless kid. She can't decide what she wants to do.

Jimmy: Yeah, kids get frustrated. Kids get sad or scared. She is angry that she has to do this kid's stuff. Very interesting. And she also, I think, has my pick for the weirdest peanuts hair. Thought about how you would be actually styling that. That is almost Rhonda level. Level weirdness. And it picks up the very next day on 

June 13th. So 19, 78 still. So Sally is now on the bus, and she's sitting next to a brand new character, our pal Eudora. And Eudora is sitting there sort of stoically. Sally has her angry face on. And Eudora says, I hope I'm on the right bus. I've never been to camp before. Sally looks completely annoyed at this. And Sally says, they'll have a great time. And then Eudora says, you're lying, aren't you?

Harold: That's a nice character intro.

Michael: I think this is the first time Sally's, interacted with someone younger than her. Because just from this and the fact that she's. She's a little smaller, I, I take it that Sally's older.

Jimmy: Yeah. And she. It feels like Eudora is. This is her first year at camp. Right, Right. So, yeah.

Liz: But they share a bunk or something like that. So I don't think. I think that she. That Eudora is just smaller. But they're about approximately the same. The same grade, probably.

Michael: Well, at least difference when you're three or four.

Harold: Yeah, that's true. But the other thing is, at least we know that Sally is the one with more experience. Maybe, she's been there before and. And so she's now got this relationship with somebody that she knows something that they don't. And that is new. Kind of new for Sally. And it's kind of cool to see that last panel where Sally's kind of pulled out of her funk by Eudora just saying, you're lying, aren't you?

Jimmy: Right.

Harold: And it's like, oh, I want to see that dynamic. Like we're saying, you know, what is Sally to somebody who doesn't have the knowledge and experience she does. But what role does she take on now?

Jimmy: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Which is really, really interesting. 

And it picks up the very next day. They've arrived at the camp and they're going to their. What do they call them? Barracks? Is that what they call it? No, what it was.

Liz: Cabins.

Jimmy: Cabin I was looking for. Too difficult to war at their barracks.

Harold: Gulag. Exactly. Depends on who you ask.

Jimmy: Yeah, exactly. 

So Eudora says to Sally. Last week, my mother said to me, eudora, I think you should go to summer camp. So here I am in the wilderness. Sally's putting her sleeping bag on the bunk. She says, it's not too bad. You may even like it. And then Eudora says, so I'll ask you the same thing I asked her. What if I get eaten by an antelope? 

Jimmy: There's no answer for questions like that.

Michael: It's something I worry about constantly.

Harold: Yeah. So what do we see about Eudora so far in the first eight panels of her existence in Peanuts? How does she come across here?

Jimmy: she is so stoic. Her expression has not changed at all.

Harold: Right.

Liz: You know, but she's not shy.

Jimmy: No.

Liz: She speaks her mind.

Harold: Yep. Yep. She's got an imagination. Yep. Thinking about antelopes, maybe she's less experienced in the world, like we were saying. You know,

Jimmy: it's funny, though, that Sally has to wear the sailor cap, but Eudora gets to stay in her grunge uniform.

Harold: It doesn't matter what hat you wear, as long as you wear a hat.

Jimmy: You gotta wear a hat.

Harold: But it's so cool. In three strips, we see angry, angry Sally. And then once she's around Eudora, even though Eudora called her out for lying, she's like, it's not too bad. You may even like it. That's interesting. You know, is Sally maybe a little more theatrical inside than we. We say Sometimes it's, oh, a hundred percent, not so much how she's feeling, or maybe it's. Well, it's the kind of exaggerated feeling. You speak, your emotions. It's not the reality, necessarily.

Jimmy: Yes. And do you feel like--. That put. Could possibly be. As you guys who have had, siblings, do you think that is a younger child thing, that they feel they need to emote more or draw more attention to themselves so that they're. They're hurt?

Harold: I mean, I don't know. Maybe I. I haven't noticed that.

Michael: I envy you being an only child.

Harold: So are you trying to prove the point Michael, in still a.

Jimmy: Yeah. No, I do wonder what that's like. I mean, having raised twins, you know, that is,

Harold: Well, how do the minutes difference. Yeah, the minutes.

Jimmy: Yeah, that's. There actually is a difference that I think.

Harold: Does that make a difference that, you know, you were first one out. Does that make any difference to. To.

Jimmy: I think I think it might. I. I actually do think it might.

Harold: Yeah. Now, that's gotta be psychological. It can't be anything else.

Jimmy: Right. It's totally psychological. Yeah, absolutely.

Harold: And it's. It.

Jimmy: If it's. If they, like. That's what I feel. If they feel it, the kids. That's because I put it there.

Harold: You know what I mean? Right. Well, you didn't have to tell them the order. Well, that's true. That's true, I suppose. I guess.

June 15th. Eudora's now kind of, kicking back. She's, propped up against a whole bunch of pillows in her bunk and looks like she's reading maybe a comic book. And Sally says, hey, Eudora, we have to go to the main hall for orientation. Eudora says, if they tried to ship us to the Orient, forget it. Sally says as they walk to the meeting. How do you feel about washing dishes and setting tables to achieve her replies, I'd rather go to the Orient.

Michael: Sally seems to be sort of. She's not really a rebel. You know, she's getting sent to a camp, against her will, but she seems to be going along with it.

Jimmy: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you think it is because she is trying to act big sisterly towards Eudora, or is it because that's just who she is in situations, you know, where the adult world requires something from her?

Liz: Maybe she's trying out a new personality.

Harold: Well, we've talked about that. Sometimes some of us choose changing personalities and other people are like, I don't even know what you're talking about. How is that even possible? You. You know. But the thing about Sally that's interesting, that's coming out here is not being spoken of. No one's calling it out is, there's just this kind of contrarian nature to her that if she doesn't see something in the world that she feels she's got to express it. Now Eudora's expressing it so she doesn't have to. And so now, she's. She's doing the opposite for Eudora to balance things out. Is. Is Sally one of those people that has to just balance out the world based on whatever she sees lacking were missing.

Jimmy: Well, that's interesting because you could have done another version of this where Sally meets a girl who doesn't want to be at, camp either and yells like, you know, friend. Like that Charlie Brown. Right.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: And then they're off, you know, being kind of off on their own, and that becomes the thing. They had fun anyway, even though they just had fun complaining about all the other stuff at camp.

Harold: Yeah. Have we ever seen Sally being conspiratorial with anybody in this strip?

Jimmy: I don't think so.

Harold: This doesn't seem to be in her.

Jimmy: No, no.

Harold: The closest it is she. She goes in griping like crazy when Linus pulls her into the. The pumpkin patch.

Jimmy: Right.

Harold: And she's going to let. She tries to go along, but it just goes against the brain and she can't stand it.

Michael: Yeah, my. I'd never been to camp or anything, but, yeah, I would try to sabotage the whole thing.

Jimmy: What would you do?

Michael: Well, you know, I'd just go off and. So they'd have to go organize a search party or something.

Harold: Well, you can get some merit badges for your friends.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: For saving you. Did we bring up the thing about Gen Z at work where they said like 51% of Gen Z claim to be entrepreneurial, which I think is kind of cool, given where things are going that they maybe don't need to be.

Jimmy: Yeah, right.

Harold: But the other part was like 25% of them said they were actively trying to undermine the businesses in which they worked.

Jimmy: You're right.

Harold: so, Michael, you'd be a great Gen Z kid.

Michael: No, no, that's. That's my fantasy. I'm actually very. I just go along with authority.

Jimmy: I don't see you as a go along with the horde type only.

Michael: I hate it.

Jimmy: But I don't actually think you've gone along with the horde once in your life.

Michael: But if a cop pulls me over, you know, I'm very friendly.

Harold: Oh, well, okay.

June 16th. Now the meeting is over, and Eudora and Sally are going back to the bunk. And Eudora says, I didn't understand what they said in that meeting. Sally says, they said that our group is going to camp out tonight. And Eudora says, you mean sleep outside? Sally says, that's right. And Eudora answers on purpose? 

Jimmy: What I'm seeing here is Eudora has become Sally.

Liz: Yes.

Jimmy: Sally has become Charlie Brown.

Harold: Absolutely.

Liz: Yes, completely.

Jimmy: Which is pretty interesting because that's where Sally would learn this. Right?

Harold: Right. Yeah. She's been exposed to Charlie Brown's responses to her. And that's interesting because it shows that she understands he's not being unreasonable. In fact. Well, we see that a lot in the Sally Charlie Brown strips. She totally understands. He's the reasonable one.

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: Which gives her the freedom to be the unreasonable one. Exactly. Exactly.

Jimmy: Has a cartoonist ever gotten more with more minimal expressions like the Eudora character? She has so much character. She's making no expression throughout any of this.

Michael: Yeah, she does have expression.

Jimmy: I'd rather go to the Orient than have her eyebrows arched like she's sad or her face down or, you know, on purpose. Doesn't seem like she's shocked. It's the same exact expression, but it conveys so much.

Michael: Well, she will have an expression coming up.

Jimmy: Coming up.

Michael: That's a sneak, preview.

Harold: Eudora is. Yeah, like you had said, she's so far here she's been very stoic. And Charles Schulz seems to like characters that can say things that are a little bit off the wall in this stoic way, usually, especially if they're a little bit younger. I think of, when Charlie Brown goes to the other. The other neighborhood and becomes the hero for the little kids baseball team and they're saying all these wacky things. Totally deadpan. He seems to really. That seems to like blow off some steam for him. He loves that in characters that are just kind of nuts, but they're deadpan.

Michael: Nuts.

Jimmy: Yes. Yeah, it's really cute. The next day,

June 17, 1978, they are camping out and it's, Sally in a little sleeping bag and Eudora in a sleeping bag. No tents. They're just camping out right on the ground and looking up at the sky. And Eudora says to Sally, what was that? And Sally says, that was a falling star. And then there's a silent panel as they continue to look up in the sky. And then Eudora makes an expression. She sits up with a big smile on her face and says, missed me!

Michael: So she's a real joker.

Jimmy: See? And like that, that smile especially, I think more so than if you're reading it in the papers, you know, day by day, where you're not really noticing the consistency of Eudora. It really feels great when she smiles there. Like, you know what I mean? It feels like she's okay now. She's been worried about this whole thing, but now she's happy and kind of having a good time.

Harold: Yeah. Because that could have been a thing of danger. Antelopes and all that, falling stars.

Liz: But she.

Harold: She's kind of triumphant that she. She dodged a bullet there, right? Yeah.

Jimmy: You know, you could be distracted by the falling star while the antelope is

Harold: sneaking up on you and, you know, could be trouble.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: And I feel bad for this, this camping. They've got these pillows just lying on the ground. It's going to be nasty once the dew point hits.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: It's like now.

Jimmy: Did you guys, camp at all when you were kids? I'm sure I asked this before, but. No, I'm assuming not in la.

Michael: Never.

Harold: No. No. Closest I think I mentioned this closest was in a cabin with a bunch of kids in the Adirondacks for like a night. I was talking to my sister about this, and if I understood her correctly, because I don't remember, as I often don't remember a lot of things. I do remember us all sitting around as the parents went off to some dinner somewhere. We were hanging out with kids we didn't know for the first night. And there's this little TV set in the cabin, and we're watching Hogan's Heroes. But I think it was a color set. It was a tiny set. But I just feeling it being really awkward. And I think my sister said, for whatever reason, we left early. We didn't stick around. I don't remember past, you know, and I remember sleeping in that dorm. But she. I think she said, for whatever reason, the family decided, we're not sticking around for this.

Jimmy: Every. There is a great amusement park near, where I grew up called Knoebels Amusement Resort. And it's free to get in, right? You could just go and walk around and, you know, pay individually if you want to ride the rides. But they also have a campground, and my friend was one of eight kids, so they needed a cheap family vacation every year. And they would, you know, rent a spot at Knoebels to camp. So we would camp for a week in the summer there. It wasn't a camp. It was just us having fun. But what the amazing thing is, right, because. So you'd be camping and they had a. They had a camper too, but we slept out just like this around a fire.

Harold: No. No. Really?

Jimmy: Yeah. And then you'd wake up. Well, not just like this. We weren't on the ground. We had, you know, those lawn chairs that lie totally down. You know what I'm talking about? Lawn chairs and sleeping bags on that. And you'd wake up in the morning and the park would be open, so you could just go to the amusement park for the day. It was amazing.

Harold: Wow.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: For a whole week. That's cool.

Jimmy: Well, they stayed for a whole week. I don't think they invited Mike's friends for a week. I think we probably stayed like two or three days or whatever. That sounds fun. Yeah, it was very fun.

Liz: I did lots of camping as an adult once I moved to the West Coast. That was. It's. It's more beautiful in there. They had lots of wonderful state parks where that. That aren't fully touristed. And I do remember we were in Yosemite one time. And we arrived really late. And the only spot that was available, we didn't realize was on a bear path. A bear sort of wandered into our, campsite in the middle of the night.

Harold: Oh, my gosh.

Liz: The guy who was with my sister jumped up and poured, what do you call it, lighter fluid into the fire. That was the embers of the fire. And it went vroom and scared the bear away.

Harold: Wow.

Jimmy: Wow.

Harold: Wow. Holy cow.

Harold: That's, a quite a camping experience.

Liz: Yeah, it was. We were pretty stupid.

Harold: Wow. That's nuts. Yeah, I don't. I wasn't. I didn't sleep under a tent until I was like, 50 years old. I went up to Acadia national park with my sisters.

Liz: Yeah, we've been to Acadia.

Jimmy: That's why.

Harold: Yeah, lovely, lovely place. But that was it. I mean, I did it with her. And then just last year, I spent four nights under my sales tent in New York and in Massachusetts, just so that I didn't have to pay for a hotel in New York and Massachusetts. So the cheapskated me turned me into a camper.

June 19th. So they're sitting out still under the, stars in their sleeping bags, and Eudora, says, sally, do you believe in UFOs? And Sally fervently says, no, I think the whole idea of creatures of superior intelligence trying to contact us is stupid. And there's a silent panel, and Eudora says, my mother tried to call me on the phone this morning.

Jimmy: I could see Sally saying that line. So cute.

Michael: just.

Harold: Yeah. The only difference is Eudora is. Is more stoic, saying, yes.

Jimmy: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Harold: I wonder if Sally appreciates the. The sentiments, the hearing herself kind of speaking, but not in with high volume. You know, she relates.

Jimmy: She must just vibe with her instantly because, you know, you could see another version, yet another version where Sally doesn't want anything to do with this kid. Right. But she goes right into, like, big sister mode.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: So speaking of people calling us on the phone, we're going to have to check the hotline in the mailbag. So how about we take a break right here and then come back, do that and finish up these, fun Eudora strips.

Liz: Wonderful.

Harold: All right, we'll be right back.

BREAK

VO: Hi, everyone. We love it when you write or call to tell us how much you enjoy the show. But don't just tell us, tell your friends, tell complete strangers, share your appreciation in a review. It doesn't have to be on Apple Podcasts. 60% of you listen on other apps. Some of those apps have review sections. Think of all the poor Peanuts fans out there who haven't found us yet. There are review instructions on our website@unpackingpeanuts.com SpreadtheWord. Thank you for your support. And now let's hear what some of you have to say.

Jimmy: And we're back. Hey, Liz, I'm hanging out in the mailbox. Do we got anything?

Liz: We do. We heard from Jason Bullett, who says, greetings, all. I figured the following would be right up Harold's alley. I recently found a Facebook page with memes of peanut strips. But instead of the actual dialogue, there are riffs from various episodes of Mystery Science Theater 3000. For example, there's a meme with Snoopy wearing an old school diver's helmet and quoting Lloyd Bridges in Sea Hunt.

Harold: By this time, my lungs were aching for air. Oh, that's cool.

Liz: Yeah.

Harold: Yeah, that's definitely up my alley.

Liz: Yeah, we have a number of crossover listeners that people who love both Peanuts and Mystery Science Theater.

Harold: Yeah, that's really neat. Yeah, it's interesting. In some ways, it's so different, but in other ways. Well, come on, Minneapolis St. Paul humor. This is it. We throw in Garrison Keillor, and we've got the triumvirate of Minnesota humor.

Jimmy: I don't know. Prince was kind of funny. No, not

Harold: when doves laugh.

Jimmy: Oh, that would be amazing if he went.

Liz: And we also heard from super listener John Merullo, who says, hi, gang. I mentioned it in the Patreon Zoom that I wanted the next season to be Patty and Violet season. You proposed as Mean Girls, reiterating that, let's give some love to the two girls who set the tone for the strong female characters in Peanuts, before even Lucy and I wrote back to him and said that we had definitely heard him and we were definitely going to incorporate it, but just not quite yet. And, he said, that sounds great. I look forward to Shermy Roy 5, Eudora, and some of the other great characters will be included.

Jimmy: Great. Well, Eudora's here, and we actually had a little production meeting beforehand, and we are gonna do Mean Girls after the Sidekicks, season is over. So that's pretty exciting.

Liz: and we also heard from Gus Davis. He says, my name is Gus and I am 10 years old, and I have been listening to your podcast for about a year, but I have never written, and I do not exactly know how I'm supposed to do this. So at this point, I'm just writing stuff.

Harold: Good.

Jimmy: That's all you do.

Liz: A few months Ago, I went to the Peanuts Museum and I left a note for Jean Schulz asking if she had any advice about cartooning. I've been doing a comic myself called Too Late now for about a year, and she connected me with Paige Braddock, and I went to her studio, which influenced my cartooning career a lot.

Jimmy: Wow.

Harold: Wow, that's so cool.

Liz: And he sends us a link to his blog, which is called Prehistoric Sock Squirrel.

Harold: I like it. It's very evocative.

Liz: Yeah, it signs it. Well, thank you for making a great podcast for four years. And please keep doing it forevvvvver and evvvver.

Jimmy: Forever and ever, come what may. We will.

Harold: Well, hats off to you for reaching out and asking for advice in the real world. When I was 10 years old, that was the scariest thing in the world for me to do. I don't know, everyone's different, but man, I do remember in my newspaper, when I was about 10 years old, when I was living in the Rochester, New York area, there was this big article about a local guy who had sent his strip to Charles Schulz. And they showed examples of the strip that, he was doing and in full color. I don't know, they really gave him a cool little space for his article. And Schulz and being Schulz did get back to him. And I remember that the strip was very, I don't know, cynical is the word. It kind of. But, you know, the Garfield vibe, you know, where you got a character who's, you know, the eyes are half closed and all of that. And that was the thing that Schulz, I think, said back to him is. I think he, he felt it was a little too, depressing was the word. But, you know, that was not Schulz's thing. And Schulz just went ahead and told him that, but it didn't matter. He was still thrilled. And I was like. As a 10 year old, I was like, oh, man. You know, actually writing to Charles Schulz, I couldn't. I, even though I saw someone in my own community do it at 10 years old, there was no way. And here, you know, I overlapped with Schulz all these years, and I never had the other than to help make a get well card. I never, I never dared reach out to somebody that I admired so much. So I admire you for having, done that because that is a wonderful thing to do. And that is how you get to be part of the community of whatever it is you love. Just, just be a part. Reach out, and people will reach out back to you. So congratulations on that.

Jimmy: And, you know, just major props To Jeannie and Paige.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: For, for making that happen for you. That, that is so special that you got to hang out with Paige. That's, someday about that, you know, as like a continuity of Jedi knights. You know, you met Paige and Paige worked for Charles Schulz and, and that's, that's really, really special. And you know, like, so many times you're watching art or you're enjoying art and you have that nagging thing in the back of your mind that, the people who make this are probably secretly jerks, but every once in a while you don't. It's so great that Peanuts is one of those things.

Harold: And Jeannie knew where to direct you, to the right person that was going to inspire you, which I think is really cool.

Jimmy: Absolutely. That's awesome.

Liz: So that's it for, for the mail.

Jimmy: We got two things from the hotline. Let's go ahead and start with the text messages we heard from super listener Rich Thomas, who wrote and said, is there any good writing about Snoopy's impact on Hello Kitty and that part of Japanese culture? Probably. Our next thing…

Liz: listeners might be able to direct us to that.

Jimmy: Yeah. Help us out. we have, we have many Japanese listeners, so. Or people who live in Japan who are not Japanese. But I would love to actually, know that because there's clearly some back and forth influence. Well, not back and forth, but there's clearly some influence there.

Harold: Yeah. And that takes me back to when I was at San Diego Comic Con and there was a, like a Japanese collective of people. I think it was the first year they did it, you know, and it was, it was pretty cool seeing all of these different artists and them, reaching out and, you know, this is before manga became as big, at least as manga is now. And I remember talking to somebody there and I showed them my funny animal stuff and my funny animal stuff. You know, the characters are acting like humans. They, they weren't acting like, you know, cats and dogs walking on all fours or whatever. And I was told by the person who offered some advice and said, well, in Japan we don't accept the idea of anthropomorphic animals. And I thought, well, that that's interesting. And then later, you know, we talked about this before, but when Hello Kitty origins were being talked about and the creators shocked everyone by saying, Hello Kitty's not a cat. It's a little girl who looks like a cat. Okay. So that, that creator, I guess, knew about those rules, even though those rules were being torn down, even as you know, even. Even as he chose to follow those rules for himself. And then, of course, we see Snoopy. Snoopy. He's in a kid's strip, but he is obviously acting like a human and is beloved, at least as an icon. It'd be interesting to know more about as a character, you know? Cause Schulz's art is so beautiful. And Hello Kitty for years really was an icon, and we didn't know what Hello Kitty was about. They've since tried to give Hello Kitty a backstory and all of that, but. Yeah. How did they view Peanuts? Did Peanuts kind of come in as the icon and then start to maybe sneak in in terms of the actual characters and stories?

Jimmy: Yeah. And we heard from Andrew on the hotline.

Andrew: Hey, guys. Andrew Cadell calling, longtime listener. just an idea, maybe for a future show where you can talk about strips that have, the first couple of panels being all blank, no dialogue, and then the last panel having the punchline. I'm sure it's, like, probably a handful of those. Just an idea. All right, well, keep up the good work and be, of good cheer.

Jimmy: So how about that, guys? an episode where we do mostly silent strips, or maybe even we could do an all silent strip. That would be challenging for me.

Liz: Yes.

Jimmy: to read it, but, yeah.

Liz: Yeah, we've talked about some great ones, but it really would be. Jimmy would be working hard.

Harold: I like the idea of three no dialogue panels with text at the end, and just to see the rhythm of it. And, you know, how much variety does Schulz give to that? And what kind of a joke is that? You know, we're sometimes breaking that stuff down for how he approached humor, and maybe there's something for us to learn from that.

Jimmy: Yeah. Now, one thing I will say, it is a lot more effort to do these episodes now than it was to do the reread, because all we had to do was just, you know, read the next group of strips. So now it requires someone. Me, currently, but the other guys occasionally to go through and find those strips, which is. Which is no problem. But it's a great opportunity to remind you guys that you could support us through buying a T shirt or sending us a couple bucks for a mud pie or becoming a Patreon subscriber. You can find out all that info over@, unpackingpeanuts.com and if you want to get in touch with us, it's unpacking peanuts@gmail.com or you can call and leave a text in the hotline like our listeners Just did. That number is 717-219-4162. But remember, if you call, identify yourself. And as always, if I don't hear from you, I worry. All right, guys, how about we get back to these Eudora strips?

Liz: Let's do it.

June 20th. Eudora and Sally are now in the cafeteria. And Eudora says, if we became lost in the woods, how long could we go without real food? And Sally says, I. I'll bet we could go for a month without real food. Eudora says, how about junk food? Sally says, 11 minutes. 

Jimmy: Not much to say about that one, but it's very cute. So, moving on.

Harold: Well, wait. Well, wait a. I mean, I'm just looking at this. They are really roughing it. Is this how you do it at camp, where you. You just put the food on the tray and no plate?

Jimmy: No plates.

Harold: That is a. That is a really rustic camp.

Jimmy: And it looks like you got some lima beans and what, two pieces of toast and milk? yeah.

Harold: Yeah. I think 11 minutes is ticking now.

Later at night, we're in the bunk for Sally and Eudora. And Sally says, eudora, are you crying? What's the matter? Eudora, is rolled over, so she has her back to Sally. And Eudora says, I never wanted to come to this camp. But then she rolls over, and Sally has now gotten out of bed and come to see how Eudora's doing. And she. Eudora says, but I'm not as lonely as I thought I was going to be. And then Eudora says, I'm only crying with one eye. Which finally makes Sally very happy.

Harold: Yeah. What a big smile.

Michael: It's like a time she's cracked a joke and smiled, which we thought. We thought was forbidden for a comic strip.

Jimmy: Well, it's. You know, it is. It's an interesting thing to do, like, because I think that. Because, I've been actually thinking about this quite a lot because one of the things I'm working on a new Amelia Rules story right now for the 25th anniversary. You know, the characters make quips and jokes, and you have to be judicious with the smiling joke, because it has to be that the character is intentionally making a joke and wants the other character intentionally know they're making a joke. They both have to be kind of on the same wavelength, and then you do the smile. But if it's like, just constantly, it looks like it looks like. I don't know what it looks like. It just looks very false and, like you're trying too hard or something.

Harold: What I might call a payoff strip.

Jimmy: Right, yeah, sure.

Harold: And Schulz is a master at this, where he denies us something, unrequited love or whatever, and then something breaks through, but it's because we were denied and denied and denied. And then you have that moment where, you know, Lucy's crying, holding on to Linus because she realizes he loves her or whatever. It's like, if that was there all the time, it wouldn't have the impact of that strip where they've just been going at it, you know?

Jimmy: Right, right, exactly. Yeah. I, Mean, we could even imagine with the smile thing, just if Sally said 11 minutes with a big smile, that would be totally different. Like, and you could kind of. You Maybe if they were both sharing junk food in that moment and there's. And, like. But it would be a completely different thing than just a witty, dry response, which is what Sally's doing.

Harold: Right. And, we've talked about this. I think we did, when we were talking with. Yeah. Patrick McDonnell, is that, you know, you're reading normally the way you would have encountered this strip for the first time. You would have been reading your daily newspaper. Right. Probably in your home, and you're just flipping through the pages, you hit the funnies, and you just start to go down there. And in four panels, how engaged can you be? You know, it's like you're in this world for 10 seconds and you're out. And I think the mistake, if you call it a mistake that a lot of cartoonists make, is they're trying to win you into their world by big emotion and Schulz. And that I think that tends to repel. I don't mean that in, like, a horror way, but, you know, if the character is feeling stronger than you are as you're reading it, you have to kind of step back a little bit from the strip. But if the character is more stoic than the humor you find in it, it actually pulls you into the strip. And I think Schulz was a master of pulling people into the strip and leaning in to the characters. And that was to his benefit for them, falling in love with these characters.

Jimmy: Wow. Yeah, I think that's right. That's a really interesting point. 

June 22nd. This. I think this is just so funny. Okay. The very next day, Sally and Eudora are about to go fishing. Sally is rigging up a fishing pole, and Eudora says, you're going to take me fishing? That's great. I don't know anything about fishing. They're walking down to the lake, and Sally says, well, what we'll do is we'll go down on the dock and see if there are any fish in the lake. And then they get to the dock, and Eudora says I see one and just dives straight into the lake. And then she's up to her neck floating out there. And then Sally sits down on the edge of the dock and says, you just paddle around there a while, and I'll explain about these poles.

Harold: That's Eudorable.

Jimmy: That is funny. That is so funny. Talk about the payoff. Again. We have this little stoic character, then suddenly she just leaps into the water.

Harold: That's great.

Jimmy: Now, Michael, how does this feel to you seeing, Sally as someone who has always liked Sally, now seeing her in this other role for such an extended period of time, what does that make you feel? Are you. Does it deepen your appreciation of Sally or lessen it?

Michael: Well, it's definitely a side we haven't seen. It's. I would not pick these as good examples of Sally as a character, but this is our Eudora feature, so.

Liz: Well, it gives a different side of Sally that we haven't seen before.

Michael: Yeah, but it's not a funny side.

Liz: She's a straight man.

Jimmy: Yeah, she's the straight man in this. That's, Okay, well, there. That's actually really the core of what has happened. Right. In just terms of sheer craft, she switched to being the straight man.

Harold: Yeah, she gets a good, good couple zingers in there. Like the 11 minutes for junk food and.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. And that's another, though, example of why that has 11 minutes for junk. It has to be stoic because she can't be suddenly also cutting jokes and stuff.

Harold: In this instance. Pretty cute. Yeah. Yeah. And. And there really is. This feels like Schulz thought this out as an arc, which you don't always feel like. Sometimes it feels like he's kind of go one step forward and then figure things out. One step forward. Figure things out.

Jimmy: Either.

Harold: He did a really good job, and it just was natural. but it seems like there's something going on here that kind of leads to that last strip where the. The bond that you think is happening is just come. They just come out and say it, you know, that, you know, Eudora's not lonely because Sally's there, and Sally likes that. You know, it's gradual, and it kind of. Again, you get there, it is a payoff because you've seen things slowly move forward, and I. I appreciate that. I don't always get that with Schulz stuff when it's, you know, this is slightly complex in terms of the relationships and the characters, like you said, shifting their personality that they all, have when they're around another person, you know. But it seems, it just seems thought out, almost like this was going to be a special or something. He had to think about it from an arc.

Jimmy: Yeah.

 June 23rd. Okay, so there's. Sally and Eudora are still fishing. Eudora has gotten out and apparently dried herself off. And Sally says, okay, Eudora, you fish in this part of the stream. They're at a stream now. I guess they've abandoned the lake and I'll fish down there in that part. And Eudora, we see her holding her rods and they're not real rods, they're sticks with strings attached to them. And Eudora says, I don't think this is going to work. And Sally said, what's the trouble? And Eudora says, either the stream is too narrow or my line is too long. And we see her. The stream is literally about 6 inches across. And Eudora has cast way to the other side and it's just in the grass.

Liz: Now, as someone who actually did go to camp, there is not this much time alone. You're always with large groups of other campers and counselors and stuff like that. They would never have this much private time.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Really? That's interesting.

Jimmy: Well, that's what happens when you have a camp in a world with no adults.

Liz: True,

Harold: Well, that's interesting. So everything is kind of like what it seems to be for kids today with organized sports and all of that. Camp doesn't give you that moment to go out and be amongst nature on your own or no, find your own buddy.

Liz: You're in large groups of people and you're making lanyards and you are doing nature walks, and stuff like that with large groups of people and having people-- Like a school trip. You're in a crowd.

Harold: Okay, so what kind of camp did you go to? Who was behind the camps that you were?

Liz: My first one was Girl Scouts and the next few years it was YMCA.... Okay, aren't we glad we know that?

Jimmy: I am glad. I was actually just. I had a joke and then it went from my mind utterly. And I was trying to recall it quickly and I couldn't.

June 24th, we have Sally and Eudora back in their bunks at night. And Eudora's happy and she says, thank you for teaching me about fishing today, Sally. I had fun. I even wrote home to my dad and told him that I caught a blue marlin. And Sally says, good grief. He'll never believe a story like that. And Eudora, eyes closed and looking very satisfied, says he'll believe it. He wants me to be happy. 

Jimmy: I think that's really sweet. And has some. Eudora has, some insight into father psychology.

Harold: Yeah, I just think of Charles Schulz and, one of his younger daughters. There's something there.

Jimmy: Oh, absolutely. And then, even though that is the finale of the Eudora debut story, I found this one from the very next year, and I wanted to share it because I just think it's very funny. 

June 10, 1979. It's a Sunday, and Eudora is standing next to her sleeping bag outside with a huge full moon in the sky. And she says, what am I doing here? And then we see her in her sleeping bag next to Sally, lying in her sleeping bag. They're outside, and Eudora says, why aren't I home watching tv? Why do we have to sleep outside? I thought this camp had log cabins. And then Sally says, this is called roughing it. And Eudora says, you know what I'd like right now? A pizza and a marshmallow sundae. Sally says, a what? And then looks over at Eudora and says, Eudora, you're weird. And then Sally says, who else in the world would think of pizza and marshmallow sundaes at this time of night? And then we see, concealed by both of their sleeping bags, a third, a, sleeping camper, which is Snoopy, who sits up, gives them the side eye, and has a gigantic cheesy grin because he is indeed, along with me, a person who would be thinking of pizza and marshmallow sundaes in the middle of the night.

Liz: And he's wearing his nightcap.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: This little stocking cap is adorable.

Michael: Yeah.

Harold: you think Sally would think about pizza and marshmallow sundaes in the night?

Jimmy: She's in her big sister mode, right?

Harold: Yeah, she's the junk food queen.

Jimmy: Yeah. So funny. So cute. So there you go, guys. That is our Eudora episode. I hope everybody enjoyed listening to it. I really had fun, reading and talking about these strips.

Harold: Can I ask you, Jimmy, you said you found that there was a fan club. Are you seeing people talking about Eudora? Did you catch anything about what. What they liked about Eudora? Were they talking about what made Eudora special to them?

Jimmy: What I saw was, actually, I was reading, some posts on Reddit, and it. What it was was that people, basically, someone had posted a bunch of Eudora strips, saying, this is, like, one of my my favorite kind of forgotten Peanuts characters, and most people were like, oh, my God, I forgot all about her. This is great stuff. but a lot of other people were like, never saw this, but this is one of my favorite characters now. It was really fun, and it was fairly recently. I think I saw it like 2024 or something. That was when the thing was archived stuff. Yeah. So people--

Harold: She seems very contemporary. Yeah.

Jimmy: People are still finding, you know, hidden corners of the strip, which is really cool.

Harold: That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Eudora definitely doesn't feel just like some 70s character. Yeah, just like Schulz doesn't seem to do that. You know, you don't feel there. Maybe, some of the 50s stuff feels pretty 50s, but.

Jimmy: Yeah, no, He locks into a character, and when he knows he has something, he gives it his all.

Jimmy: You guys got anything else? Before we wrap up here?

Liz: I just want to say one more thing about the bed linens at the camp.

Harold: Sure.

Liz: There were no bed linens at the camp. I mean, I am the expert here. And, every. We only had sleeping bags. There was nobody coming and. And making our beds or providing clean sheets. That. That's just. And. And pillows. I mean, come on.

Jimmy: Are you sure you weren't in prison?

Harold: No.

Liz: YMCA, did not provide linens.

Jimmy: Well, there you go. It is not fun to stay at the YMCA. They don't provide linen.

Harold: So. And interestingly, that this did not get turned into an animated series until after Schulz passed away. So apparently was. Was not up there on the top of his list of things that he was trying to do. Either that or, you know, sweeps. Sweeps. Back in the day were November and in what, February and May. So it was in the summertime. You don't want to have a. You don't want to spend all that money on a special and run it during rerun season.

Jimmy: Yeah, that's usually where they would just drop the stuff that nobody wanted to see. That's where I remember seeing the spirit pilot all those years ago.

Harold: Yeah. Yeah. All the failed pilots they would show.

Jimmy: All right, well, if, you guys want to get in touch with us, there's a couple different ways you can do it. The first thing you can do is you go over to unpackingpeanuts.com you subscribe to the great Peanuts reread, and that'll get you that one email a month that'll let you know what we're up to. You can also just shoot us an email unpacking peanutsmail. Com or you can call our hotline 717-219-4162. Or you can follow us on social media at ah, Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and Threads and at Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. Remember, we are three cartoonists so if you could help us out by buying one of our books, that is always greatly appreciated. And you can find links to that all at unpackingpeanuts.com. Wwe'll be back in a couple weeks where we continue our Sidekicks and Second Bananas series. until then though, for Michael, Harold and Liz, this is Jimmy saying, be of good cheer.

Harold: Yes, yes, be of good cheer.

VO: Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner. Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark. For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and Threads, Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.

Harold: When doves laugh.