The Family Van Pelt Episode 3 - The Goofy Dynamics Between Siblings or Why Linus’s Head is Dented

Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. This is Unpacking Peanuts, the show where we look at the greatest comic strip of all time. And today we're continuing our look at two of the most fascinating characters, Linus and Lucy. I'll be your host for the proceedings. My name's Jimmy Gownley. I'm also a cartoonist who did things like Amelia Rules, Seven Good Reasons not to Grow up, the Dumbest Idea Ever. And I'm now serializing all my new strips, including the new graphic novel in the Real Dark Knight on G Ville Comics over there on Substack. 

Joining me as always are my pals, co hosts and fellow cartoonists. He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People, as well as for this very podcast. He's the co creator of the original comic book Price Guide, the original editor for Amelia Rules, and the creator of such great strips as Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells and Tangled River. It's Michael Cohen.

Michael: Say hey.

Jimmy: And he's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former vice president of Archie Comics and the creator of the Instagram sensation Sweetest Beasts, Harold Buchholz.

Harold: Hello.

Jimmy: And making sure everything runs smoothly and keeping us out of trouble, it's our producer and editor, Liz Sumner.

Harold: Howdy.

Jimmy: All right, guys, we're back for another episode. You guys enjoying the Linus and Lucy season so far?

Michael: Yeah, I can't get enough of this stuff.

Jimmy: This is your favorite stuff, right?

Michael: Yeah, this is peak for me.

Jimmy: How about you, Harold?

Harold: Yeah, it's fun to see them this young again. You know, after going through 50 years of strips and then bouncing all the way back to the early mid-50s, is is pretty cool.  I just got so settled into where they were at the end. It's a little bit jarring, and it's also pretty cool.

Jimmy: Yeah, I've really been enjoying it. And I'd also just like to say welcome to all our new listeners. We've had such great luck getting new listeners over the last, like, month or so from a bunch of different sources. So thank you all for hanging out with us. If you want to really get into it, the one thing you can do to find out what we're going to be covering every week week is go over to unpackingpeanuts.com and sign up for the Great Peanuts Reread. And that will get you one email a month letting you know what we're going to be covering, you know, as these episodes roll out. And if you want, you can read along with us also. Ah, they can go back,  I think, right. They could go back and see. Yeah, you can go back and see all the old newsletters. So if you want to start from the beginning when. Because if you, if you weren't following along from the beginning, we, we read every strip, all 17,897 of them. And yeah, you can click on those links to those newsletters and find out what we read in each. In each episode and follow along with us.

Liz: That's at Unpackingpeanuts.com.

Jimmy: Ah, good old unpackingpeanuts.com your one stop shop for everything about this podcast. So. All right, well, I don't have anything else to say at the beginning, so how about we just go ahead and, and start with these,  new comic strips.

Michael: allright

Liz: Let's do it.

Harold: Sure.

November 5, 1954. Linus and Lucy are hanging out probably in the Van Pelt household, but it's really just an enormous void right now. And there's one little block behind Linus. And Lucy says to him, mommy's going next door for a while. Linus, we're going to be all alone, but don't worry, I'll be here to take care of you. And she squats down next to him, gets really close to him and says, you're going to be my little boy and I'm going to be your mother. And Linus screams and turns away. Aagh.

Harold: This is actually an aagh.

Jimmy: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's worse.

Harold: No, you. Well, this was the old, famous, old, uh. 

Liz: Was this the first time?

Jimmy: Yeah, but yeah.

Harold: Had we ever gotten an aagh up until now? This is like proto.

Michael: Yeah, this is actually the first appearance of aaugh also. Yeah, I mean, he spoke. We stopped last time where he. He was actually thinking in full sentences.

Harold: Yeah.

Michael: And we haven't gotten back to that in the strip yet. It happened once and then he's back to not speaking hardly at all. But he'll get there.

Jimmy: And most importantly, his head is not dented yet. Let's see if his head dent coincides with his becoming verbal.

Harold: Yeah, well, this is to me a cartoonist’s fun. You got a little, that,  singular block behind Linus and you see the letters A and C at an angle, but then you move a little bit around and what you should be C, is now B on the block. And then when we cut back to the Angle we had more originally with the A and C. It's A and C. So B. This is cartoonist fun. Keeping yourself occupied by changing the letters on the blocks you're drawing.

Michael: Also, panel one, you can tell where the light source is because Lucy's shadow goes one way. Linus. And the block goes the other way. So the light's got to be above them, directly above. So we can start plotting out the house.

Harold: We're going to have this nailed down in a few. Few strips, despite the open white void around them.

Liz: Hasn't Lucy called her mother Mother before rather than Mommy?

Harold: Yeah, yeah, she called Daddy Daddy, but, yeah,  Mother. So that's. That gives us another clue, right? Yeah, it's a little more formal, usually with. Mother. And then, of course, Mother being the psychologist, she sits.  why do you call Daddy Daddy and Mommy Mother? You should feel free to speak to your mother in the informal.

Liz: Well, or maybe she's just referring to Mother as Mommy to Linus.

Harold: Yeah, right. She doesn't dare do it to her mom.

Liz: Maybe we're going a little too deeply into this.

Harold: Maybe. Maybe this is all conjecture. Maybe this is just a funny comic strip.

Jimmy: Well it’s a little late for that now.

Liz: 187 episodes.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Oops.

November 28th, 1954. It's a Sunday, and Linus,  is crawling around in his feety jammies playing with a balloon. And he's just batting it around for three panels. And then Lucy yells, all right, who's got my balloon? No, Just wait until I catch the person who took that balloon. Boy, oh, boy. She storms into the room. Linus quickly unties the balloon, which is a trick in itself, lets all of the air out, and then swallows the balloon, keeps it in his mouth. And Lucy comes over to good old Linus and says, Linus, did you see who took my balloon? To which Linus says MMBG, and then Lucy takes that as no and walks away with, well, you're just lucky you didn't have anything to do with it. And then Linus sighs, and as he exhales, the balloon starts inflating.

Harold: Oh, man. Remember the taste of balloons. You ever taste a balloon?

Jimmy: Oh, sure.

Harold: So bitter, man. Poor Linus. Of course, Lucy is. Doesn't have a balloon feel for her, too.

Michael: She doesn't strike me as a balloon kind of person.

Jimmy: Who doesn't?

Harold: It's crazy how tiny their noses are here. Yeah. She's not a balloon person.

Michael: I don't think so.

Jimmy: Well, she is here.

Liz: Well. And,  are those letters when he is untying the balloon, or. It looks like those are letters and could spell something.

Jimmy: Yeah, it's. I think it's supposed to be, like, what. What Mort Walker would call dewlaps. Like, almost like moisture. Like. Like it's.

Harold: He's, like, worried, and it's like sweat surrounded by the. What are the other things called? Those little V's of concern emanating,  all around his head.

Jimmy: Unless it's a hidden ad for Volvo, because that's what, the first letter.

Liz: Well, and there's Ps in there, too. There's a bunch of Ps.

Jimmy: I think those are the.

Harold: Those are the sweat drops, I think. 

Jimmy: Well, guys, we may have hit the end of it.

Liz: All right? And if you want to talk to us on social media, 

Jimmy: I think maybe the end.

Harold: I think we need to have an extensive conversation about Linus's MMBG. He's got the balloon in his mouth, which is --

Liz: Does that count as one of his words?

Harold: That's actually an acronym.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Mom May be gone. I think that's what it is. MMBG. Mommy. Sorry. Mommy may be gone.

July 20, 1955. Linus and Lucy are standing outside. Lucy looks up and says, see, Linus, pretty soon the sun will be going down. And then this day will be all over. It will be gone forever. Do you hear me? Now she's ranting. You'll never see this day again. It'll be gone. Do you hear? Gone. Gone. Which Linus just covers his eyes and yells, AUGH.

Michael: At least he AUGHs This time.

Harold: With the U, Yeah. Wow. Is she doing this on purpose?

Michael: She wants to teach him, but,  this is not helping him at all.

Jimmy: Well, I think she feels this way. I don't think she's just trying to scare. I mean, I think she's. She's teaching him, like, a fact of life. And, you know, this is just how she sees it and expresses herself, which is intense.

Harold: That,  is intense. I'll tell you. Start thinking about that for the first time, it's going to get to you.

Jimmy: Or the 150th time.

Harold: Their noses are so tiny at this time. It's crazy how small they are on their faces.

Jimmy: Yeah. And look how,  we're still in those really weird, short, chubby arm stage. Like, if you look in the last panel and you would put Lucy's arm next to Linus's arm. Linus's arm would have to be twice as big to be able to bend like that compared to Lucy. And if he stood up, he would tower over her.

Liz: Where are you, with the last panel? With his knees bent. Is that what you mean?

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: Mhm. Yeah, it's the cartoonist prerogative.

February 5, 1955, Lucy is tearing the house apart just looking for something, and she yells, where's my blanket? I can't go to bed without my blanket. She's also in her orange feety pajamas now. She's stomping around looking really annoyed. And there's Linus with his thumb in his mouth and holding onto what is Lucy's blanket in this strip. And then Lucy says, give me that blanket. And she tries to pull it away from him, but Linus is having none of it. And she says, give me it, I say. And then she finally wrestles it away from him and Linus is all discombobulated and he's annoyed. And then he goes into Lucy's room where Lucy is in bed in classic thumb and blanket position. And then Linus shoots her with his finger gun. Bang.

Michael: This is. I noticed this recurred, I think three times that year, where he resorts to pulling out the old gun and shooting someone. Yeah, Lucy, basically. And he shoots an arrow.

Harold: And I didn't realize, didn't realize that Linus's blanket was Lucy's blanket.

Jimmy: Well, you realized it at one point because you did the complete Peanuts reread.

Harold: I don't remember realizing that this was.

Michael: Probably not in color when we read it.

Harold: Well, that's why I didn't realize it.

Jimmy: I'm looking forward to waiting just another three months with you two, because three months from now, I could call you guys and go, hey, we're gonna do a podcast where we're gonna read all of Peanuts. And you'd be like, that's a great idea. Start over.

Harold: Well, okay. You with a great memory. Did we, did we discuss this?

Jimmy: Of course we discussed this.

Harold: What we did.

Michael: No, not, this strip in our life.

Jimmy: We've discussed it.

Michael: No, no, this was. I didn't take the things we talked about before.

Jimmy: No, I don't remember it either, actually.

Harold: But yeah, Linus is fighting back here and it's crazy. So he learned how to suck your finger and hold the blanket, maybe from Lucy. From observation.

Liz: Thumb.

Jimmy: It seems to be.

Harold: What'd I say?

Liz: Finger. It makes a difference.

Jimmy: It does make a difference. I don't know why.

Harold: It's all the difference. All the difference in the world.

Jimmy: All right, now, between February and July, something really exciting happens, which is Linus head gets dented. Because you can see it just starting to happen. Happen in the second tier. So let's start with this next strip here. 

July 8, 1955. Now, Linus has the blanket. He's sitting there in classic thumb and blanket position. And Lucy comes over saying, disgraceful. And Linus says, oh, go away. And Lucy continues, completely disgraceful. You and that stupid blanket. Are you going to carry the thing around the rest of your life? When are you going to learn to stand on your own two feet? And then Linus, who is now completely verbal, says, what do you mean? I've got just as much willpower as anyone else. See, I don't need this blanket. I can throw it away anytime I want to. Anytime. And then he does throw that away about 2 inches. And then he completely has the shakes in the next panel and says, good grief. And then he dives and grabs the blanket. And then Lucy walks away saying, you're a hopeless case, Linus. And then Linus just says, I thought I could do it. I actually thought I could do it.

Michael: The origin.

Jimmy: He does get away without writing a joke a lot of times.

Harold: Well, and it's so funny that we just read the strip where Lucy's,  like, where's my blanket? I can't go to bed without my blanket.

Michael: Well, there was Linus's first real words came in between. I just didn't pick it because we talked about that.

Liz: Oh, but maybe it has a dent. We have to go back to find the dent moment.

Jimmy: Well, there you go. That could be a job for one of our fine listeners. It happens between those two strips.

Harold: All right.

Jimmy: Well, okay. 

January 6th, 1957. Linus is sitting in his living room reading  a copy of Furry Tales. And,  Lucy sneaks up behind him and snatches the book out from his hands, and he says, hey. He chases after her. Give me back that book. Give it to me or I'll slug ya. And then Lucy has it hidden behind her back, and she says, mom, Linus says, he's gonna slug me. And Linus says, oh, good grief. And then the word balloon comes from off panel. Linus, that's no way to talk. And then Linus says, well, that's the way they talk on tv. If they talk that way, why can't I? And the mom's voice says, that's just one of those things I can't explain. And then Lucy says, listen, dope, if you slug me, I'll slug you right back. And she's making one of her classic faces and shaking a fist at him. And she walks away. And Linus calls out to his mother, never mind, Mom. It's just been explained to me in language that I understand.

Harold: Look at that middle panel,  we are at peak jaw Peanuts characters. Lucy's jaw is way out from. From beyond her tiny little nose. That is. That's crazy. I forgot how pronounced that got on,  the characters in this era. It looks kind of strange, and, you know, it's great.

Jimmy: I love that the greatest cartoonist of all time also does not understand perspective. That first panel, that's just a tiny little Lucy.

Liz: A very large couch.

Jimmy: Yeah, gigantic couch.

Liz: Are we in full dent now?

Jimmy: Yeah, he's dented up. No, not quite, actually. No, it looks like it kind of. You can see it a little bit on the last panel of the second tier. Not so much a little bit on the first panel of the third tier. I don't know. But on this next one, we'll see it,  get way more clear.

Michael: It wasn't one event. It was continual abuse.

Jimmy: Yeah, this. This next one, we see my. Actually, no, you know what? No, I think we see it. I think you accidentally found the real moment. All right, here we go. You ready? 

June 2, 1957. Linus is out playing in the sandbox, which is actually just a random pile of sand laying in the neighborhood somewhere. He's making a nice,  huge castle, actually. And then suddenly from off panel, he hears charge. Then Lucy comes flying in, hitting him with a tricycle and then denting his head.

Michael: Yes, definitely.

Jimmy: Right. Those two panels. That's it. 

And Linus is shaken up by this, as one would be. And then he goes, gets some pliers, and then comes up to Lucy, who is so smugly sitting on her tricycle. And then we have an all lettering panel, which we never have, which is awesome. And the lettering says, hey, what are you doing there? What are you doing with those pliers? Hey. And then in the last panel, we see a maniacally grinning Linus walking away, and Lucy standing there amidst the ruins of her now disassembled tricycle.

Liz: Yay. And he has the same grin as she had in the previous strip. The,  all teeth, all mouth.

Michael: Yeah, that's,  the first time I've noticed him doing the kind of silhouetted row of houses, which m. I think looks very nice. Easy way to fill up the background there.

Harold: Yeah, it looks good, man. But,  you're right, Jimmy. I'm looking at this aftermath of the tricycle. On. On. Linus, remove the hair. Oh, my goodness. Oh, he's. You know what it looks like is he has this massive bump.

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: On one side. But, I mean, yeah, you remove the hair. That is the wonkiest looking head yeah, he's like. He tries to make up for it a little bit by adding a ton of hair on the right hair in the back. And it's,  all messy because it's. It's this weird. I mean, can you imagine when he was drawing before he got to the hair? He would have said, no, I can't.

Jimmy: No, I can't. It's really wild. It looks like a slab of T bone steak or something. It's so weird. Um. Yeah, I think this is kind of a weird period. I mean, there is, like. He's not. It's not quite the early stuff, and it's not quite the facile late 50s, early 60s stuff.

Harold: Yeah, I mean, it's great, but,  it's less. Yeah, there's less polish to the ink lines. And this is just. This is an interesting period. They're not the most appealing characters. Again, this takes me back to that thing where Al Capp was describing the Peanuts characters as little monsters, you know, and we're seeing all these concentrated strips of the sibling problems, and it really does stand out.

Jimmy: There is.

Harold: Yeah, there's a. There's a lot of. There's a lot of violence and.

Michael: Yeah, well, speaking of,  of monsters, you know, I'm the one who picked these, so don't go assuming everyone was like this. I. I really go with this. The conflict.

Harold: Yeah. I mean, but it's. It's. It's strong. It really is strong. And. Yeah, other strips, uh. I. I guess it. Again, we were talking about this last time, but I think I. I just feel for the characters more because Schulz tends to show you the aftermath of something that would have possibly just been funny. You know, like in a Bugs Bunny cartoon when somebody gets cut down.

Jimmy: But I feel that punchline, as opposed to he gives you a minute or a beat to,  sit with it and.

Harold: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which then makes the ending all that much more effective. Yeah.

Jimmy: I like the way we see the sandbox through the first four panels, and then when we see her coming, flying in on the tricycle, we don't see any of the background. Cause it's all focused just on the action. And it's just the color of sand as the entire background of the panel. And it really works.

Harold: Yeah, it's like the centerpiece of this whole strip.

Jimmy: Yeah. And I,  love the all lettering panel. That looks really cool.

Harold: Yep.

January 26, 1958. Linus and Lucy are outside, and it's snowing. And they both have their adorable little snowsuits on. Linus in blue and Lucy in red. And,  Lucy is making little bunnies out of snow. And Linus says, what are you making? And she says, these are snow bunnies. And Linus says, they look real cute. And then he says, can I help you, Lucy? And Lucy says, no, you can't help me. Get out of here. Make your own things. And,  then she stands up as Linus walks away, and she's screaming at him and don't bother me anymore. Do you hear me? Linus stomps away with a complete look of anger and frustration on his face. And Lucy goes back to making her little snow bunnies. And she says, little brothers can sure be a nuisance sometimes. And then in the next panel, she senses something and then turns and sees, and Linus has made a gigantic dinosaur snowman that is stalking the little bunnies.

Michael: This was definitely one of my faves when I was a kid, and it didn't bother me. Now it bothers me a little bit because how did she not see him building this thing?

Liz: Well, she doesn't pay any attention to him.

Jimmy:  it's a comic strip.

Michael: Yeah, I know, I know it works great, but it's. Yeah, there's no other way to do.

Jimmy: It a little bit.

Harold: Yeah, it's like silent movie logic. If we can't hear it, they can't hear it.

Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, that is true. And that's all that stuff in every art form, you know, a Shakespeare play. Suddenly someone walks to the stage and talks for two and a half minutes that no one else on stage heard, you know?

Harold: Yeah. And this is one where you see,  again, Schulz, I think, really, he takes you on this little tiny journey where you got this kind of sweet little top tier where we have peace in the world. And it's snow bunnies. And Linus is saying, they look real cute. You know, that's where he's. His head is. And then after being berated by his sister, he's,  in full dinosaur mode at the end.

Liz: I love Lucy's position in that last panel.

Harold: Yeah, that's a great little take. Leaning back with,  her arms parallel with her shoulders, the little yellow mittens. It's great stuff. And again, look at those jaws. And look at the lip on her when she's yelling, don't bother me anymore. The lip is going out way beyond the nose. And that just makes me also think of BC, which started around this time.

Jimmy: I like that panel a lot. I love the body language on Linus as he sculpts away.

Harold: Oh, My gosh, he looks. Man, that is not your typical Linus drawing.

January 3, 1960. It's another Sunday, and,  Lucy is lying on her living room floor writing something on a piece of paper. And she says, I'm really performing him a great service. And she walks into another room saying, I sort of wish that someone had done something like this for me when I was young. Here, Linus, look what I've done for you, she says as she brings in the piece of paper to Linus, who's,  just playing with some trucks in the TV room or whatever. And then Lucy says, I've made up a list of New Year's resolutions that I feel you need desperately to make. Linus reviews the list as Lucy continues, actually, these are reforms which will help you to become a better person. Linus says, well, how nice. And then he says to her, this was very thoughtful of you, Lucy. I shall try earnestly to improve myself in all these areas. And Lucy's smiling. He continues, I'll make good use of this list. I'll try very hard to improve. I really will. Lucy is just so pleased with herself. And then he smiles smugly and turns to her and says, in fact, I think I'm getting better already. Look at me. I'm improving. Then he bursts out laughing for two panels and throws the paper over his shoulder. And Lucy, despondent, looks at the piece of paper on the ground, then goes to see Charlie Brown and says, reformers have a hard life.

Michael: Yeah. Linus has got the idea. That's how you deal with useful criticism.

Jimmy: The dogs howl, but the caravan rolls on, as Truman Capote said. Yeah.

Liz: And Charlie Brown's reading his book.

Jimmy: Yep. Once again, he sits down and thinks, you know what? Finally, I'm gonna get through this book.

Michael: And then, no, it's Finnegan's Wake. He reads it for 50 years.

Jimmy: He reads it forever.

Michael: And he's still on, like, page six.

Harold: You know how Schulz used to say some strips, I'm so excited about them, I can't get through them fast enough. When I'm looking at the lettering in this, especially, like on,  the. The fourth panel on the second tier, that's the feeling I get. Here he is like, I love this idea. I can't wait to get it on paper.

Michael: Yeah.

Jimmy: Even in the second panel, in the first tier, like, it's not centered. Each line isn't centered how they traditionally would be. It's just very loose.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: What do we think about the Sunday colors in general in this era? They look good.

Michael: Yeah.

Jimmy: The Hahahas.

Harold: and all different colors are great.

Michael: Well, during our reread, everything was in black and white, so. Yeah, I didn't even realize that he had a red shirt in life.

Jimmy: You never saw that ever.

Michael: Well, obviously when I was reading newspapers, you know, it was a long time ago.

Harold: Yeah.

Michael: But all the reprints have been in black and white that I've seen.

Jimmy: Yeah. They've now done color reprints of the Sunday strips Fantagraphics has. And The New the 75th Anniversary Book that the Peanuts people put out,  has every strip in color. And the dailies look really great in color too. Even though obviously Schulz didn't do that.

Harold: Yeah. And I think to my eye that we're now hopping a year. Every time I feel the characters look a lot more appealing to me. They're settling into something that I like.  um. That is a rough era going.

Michael: Lucy definitely is taller.

Harold: Yeah.

Michael: I mean, her head. At least her head is smaller in proportion.

Harold: Yeah. This is just a little more appealing design than where he was for a while. But it is fascinating just to see them change and evolve. And in one year increments, it really pops.

Jimmy: It sure does. And before I pop, let's take a break.

Liz: Alrighty.

Michael: He popped.

Liz: I guess so

BREAK

VO: Did you complete the great Peanuts reread? Then show the world with a T shirt, a giant 17,897 emblazoned on your chest for all to see. We also have a be of good cheer pen nib design. Along with the four of us crossing Abbey Road and of course Michael, Jimmy and Harold at the Thinkin Wall. Order your T shirts today@unpackingpeanuts.com store.

Jimmy: And we are back. So, Liz, I'm hanging out in the mailbox. You got anything?

Liz: We do. We heard from some new listeners from new sources. So Spider Stomper G2I commented on YouTube about the first Van Pelt episode where we talked about the difference in levels of freedom for children nowadays versus when we were young. And Spider Stomper says Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes seemed to not go too far from his house, cause he is six and the only other kid he talked to is Susie. There are also modern cartoons made in the 2000 and tens that sort of ignore that kids can't really go out by themselves anymore like Big City Greens. Cricket and tilly are like 10 and they can go wherever they want in the town. In one episode, Cricket had to go home before the street lights came on.

Harold: Yeah, that is interesting that, you know, as adults we're creating stories about kids and you don't see a whole lot of kids telling stories about kids. And so you get this weird lag when in what's changing sometimes that, that the adult is remembering their childhood and a child is looking at what the adult created. And it's like I don't fully relate.

Jimmy: To that well that, you know, Schulz's kids used to say that to him, saying dad, you're writing about your childhood, not, not today's kids.

Harold: Mhm.

Jimmy: I mean, and then he wisely ignored them because, oh, okay, go out and ride your pony with your criticisms. I got an idea. Go play the three hole golf course.

Liz: We also got a lot of wonderful positive reaction about the Patrick McDonnell episode, including from Paul H. Tubb, also on YouTube, who said, My love of Peanuts is well documented on this Internet thing we all seem to use, as is my love of MUTTS. Therefore, I find this such a fascinating, wonderful conversation and shall of course be sharing it. Well done.

Harold: Thank you.

Jimmy: Thank you for that.

Harold: Thank you. It was such an honor to be able to talk to Patrick. That was a bucket list thing for us, you know, just an amazing experience. And to talk with somebody whose work you love about something we love so much. Peanuts is just a very special experience.

Jimmy: Yeah, absolutely. I m am so excited and happy by all of the cartoonists that we've had to. We've gotten to interview since we started this thing.

Harold: Yes. Yeah, it's just, it's been an incredible roster of, of talented, talented people. And how else would I have had the opportunity to talk with, you know, Judy Sladke and Jeannie Schulz and Lynn Johnston.

Harold: Paige

Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, it's crazy.

Harold: I mean the list is. And thank you to Todd Webb also who we've interviewed,  for making that Patrick McDonnell thing happen. Yep.

Jimmy: And you could follow Todd on Substack.  his strip is called the Poet and it's a daily. You can get it every day.

Harold: Yes.

Liz: And we, we heard some more compliments from people on Spotify this time. Zoomer 19. I was charmed by Patrick's talent in 1994 in Chapel Hill, NC where I lived with my 2 year old and husband, Bad Baby cartoon spoke volumes to me. I instantly was a fan of MUTTS and have enlightened many friends to its charms. I too loved getting a Peanuts book in my Christmas stocking. I was born in 1959 and Peanuts influenced me from the beginning. Love the positive influence of both Peanuts and MUTTS, especially the friendship, love and kindness. Excellent Conversation. Many thanks to everyone.

Jimmy: Well, thank you so much for that. It was our pleasure to have the conversation.

Liz: And Bennett Julius echoed the praise with, Loved listening to this one. Thank you for sharing. MUTTS and Peanuts are definitely something special.

Jimmy: Absolutely. Well, it's great. I'm so happy so many people,  found us with that one. Yeah, Patrick was just a great guest and he's coming back.

Liz: Yep. So that's it for. For the comments on social media. So anything on the hotline?

Jimmy: We got something on the hotline. We heard from our old pal Captain Billy, who says, Re the Patrick McDonnell episode. Just a quick message to compliment you on another awesome episode. I heard on more than a few other podcasts. Yes, I confess I listen to other podcasts. Please forgive me and let me back in your heart that podcasting can be a lonely experience because listeners just don't take the time to comment. So (in all caps), great work. Keep it up.

Michael: We will.

Liz:  thank you for the Captain Billy. We listen to other podcasts too.

Jimmy: We do.  too many. Right. All right, so that is all we got in the mailbox this time. So if you want to be in touch with us, there's a couple different ways you could do it. The first thing you got to do, go over to unpackingpeanuts.com and sign up for the old great Peanuts reread. Get that one email a month so you know what we're doing. If you just want to talk to us, you can email us. We are unpacking peanutsmail.com. you can follow us on the social medias. We're at unpackpeanuts on Instagram and threads and npacking Peanuts on Facebook, blue sky and YouTube. And of course, you can either call or text the hotline at 717-219-4162.   but remember, if you do text, identify yourself like Captain Billy did, so I know who's talking to me.

Liz: And also the comments on YouTube and Spotify are pretty great.

Jimmy: They're great. Yes. So any way you want to reach out to us, we'd love to hear from you. Because remember, when I don't hear, I worry. No one wants that.

Liz: No.

Jimmy: All right, so I'm excited. This is our only our second time doing this brand new segment which is called Unpacking Peanuts recommends where we go through and we're going to recommend each going to recommend something that we're into right now. Doesn't have to be a comic strip. It could be anything. But it's just got to be something that we are digging in the moment. Who wants to go first?

Michael: Oh, I will.

Jimmy: All right, Michael, hit me.

Michael: All right. I'm going to do a segue off of something that Jimmy said.

Jimmy: Oh, I love a segue.

Michael: This has nothing to do with his comment, but this is something that I've been obsessed with maybe the last six months. It's TV show. It's a great TV show. Came out years ago. I didn't see it. Started watching it. The segue is this Jimmy mentioned. Oh, and Shakespeare. People do these...

Liz: soliloquies?

Michael: Soliloquies.

Jimmy: Oh, yeah.

Michael: Where all of a sudden they're talking to no one. I started watching this show called Deadwood.

Harold: Oh, yeah.

Michael: Which is. By the way, this is not a recommendation because it's the vilest thing you've ever seen in your life.

Liz: I won't watch it.

Michael: It's the language. Unbelievable. They get away with this.

Liz: This is not for those of you who like us because we're peaceful.

Michael: Yeah. But anyway, it does appeal to my darker side. But here. Here we're. It's. It's not really a western, but it's set in. That was that period in, you know, a mining town and people, you know, having conversation, you know, it's. They. They speak very flowery, but every now and then the characters do a soliloquy.

Jimmy: Wow.

Michael: Which is stunning. At first you're going, wait, wait, wait. Can't the camera pan around? You see who he's talking to?

Harold: There's no one there.

Michael: They're doing exactly Shakespearean soliloquies.

Jimmy: Wow.

Michael: And it worked. It totally works.  once you get used to it, it's kind of jarring at first, but anyway, Deadwood is so great that I kind of. I'm afraid of just binging it and it being over. So I kind of, like…

Jimmy: dole it out in pieces.

Michael: Parse them out very carefully. Yeah. Anyway, so that's my recommendation, if you don't mind the absolute vilest language in the world and just total squalor. It's a great show.

Jimmy: There you go. For fans of squalor, you got Deadwood. How about you, Harold?

Harold: Well, I was. When you just talked about that soliloquy thing. Reminds me of,  a phrase we use in our household when someone breaks the fourth wall and they address you directly. We call it Looking into the Tomato can, which is a reference to a Green Acres episode when they think Jimmy Stewart is coming to town. And so, of course, Mr. Haney creates the,  shyster salesman, creates this acting school. And he's Made a thing out. I think it's out of like a cereal box and a tomato can is the lens. And so he's reminding them not to look into the tomato can. So that's for nothing, but that's not my recommendation. Love my Green Acres.  

I was also watching TV, but going a little further back to 1961. I don't know if anybody has ever seen the old series Route 66, which ran from like 1960 to 1964. One thing I've started to do, if there's a series I never really saw, and I really don't know much about it, what I'll do is I'll go to IMDb and I will look it up, and then I'll look up the episodes and they'll show you top rated episodes. And I'll pick the top rated episode and I'll watch it. And I'm so glad I did because I stumbled on season two, episode three of Route 66. It's called Good Night Sweet Blues. It has a 9.0 IMDb rating. People love this episode.  Ethel Waters, the amazing singer, is featured in this one. It's an anthology, so it's basically Martin Milner and usually,  George Maharis going around the country, driving around, kind of on the road, Jack Kerouac style kind of thing, and they just run into people one time. And what's so cool about the show is the writer and creator of the show, Sterling Silliphant, who also did like, he wrote like, Towering Inferno and Poseidon Adventure. And he has in,  Naked City, which was the series before this. You know, the city has 8 million stories.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah.

Harold: I don't know if you've ever seen that. But what he would do, apparently, is he would go around the country ahead of the show, and they'd be in a different place and they would shoot on location. And so he would go to a city, try to find a story there, and then he would write the story off, and he'd write so many of these, and then the crew would catch up with him and they would shoot the story based on whatever inspired him. So you're actually seeing real places. It's not like the fake bar or the. So anyway, they're not using paid actors in most cases for the small things. They're just people they found in that community. And so it's like this little documentary of the early 60s America that is fascinating. So that's my recommendation.

Jimmy: All right, cool. Hey, do you got anything, Liz?

Liz: I do, I do. I've been reading the latest Mick Heron novel, Clown Town. He's the author of the series Slow Horses series. That's,  been a wonderful series on Apple. And I highly recommend both the books and the TV show, which is really true to the books. But this is his latest, and I just started it in the beginning of the week, so we'll see where it goes.

Jimmy: All right, I got something. Now, this goes back to longtime listeners of the show. Might remember our good pal Will Hines. Yeah, I am recommending Will Hines Instagram, Willie B. Hines. Now, this will be over by the time this is recorded, so you'll have to go back, scroll back a little bit, but it's the funniest thing that's on the Internet right now.

Harold: And he.

Jimmy: Our buddy Will has gone viral for it.

Liz: Congratulations.

Jimmy: He was on a comedy podcast. And the podcast is all improv, but it's,  supposed to be about. They're interviewing authors who wrote movie novelizations, but,  the authors are just comedians. So Will plays the guy who wrote the Dark Knight novelization, the Heath Ledger. Okay. But the character he's playing is playing. He was the makeup artist on the Dark Knight, and they gave him this gig so that, you know, to make him feel better because he was very upset because Heath Ledger kept smearing the Joker makeup. This is his bit, right? He's like, I wanted it very neat. And then right before we'd go on, Heath would smear it, and then Christopher Nolan would go, well, we have no time. We have to do it. Okay? So segments of this have been clipped out and on Instagram and stuff. People. People have lost their minds because they don't know it's a joke. And it keeps getting more absurd. And he's so deadpan. They can't figure it's. They finally. Now there's a critical mass where people are figuring out that it's just a bit. But it got to the point where he was saying, yeah, people would come up and say, oh, Heath, good luck. Kissy kissy. And then they'd kiss him, and it would smear his makeup.  and people were, like, screaming through the Internet at will. You, sir, are a hack. It's great. It's so fun. Anyway, so Willie B Hines on Instagram.

Liz:  that's great. I'm going to check it out.

Jimmy: All right, so let's get back to the other thing we recommend, which is Peanuts by Charles M. Schulz.

Michael: Good strip.

Jimmy: I've heard of it. 

February 6, 1962. This is a daily, and we see Linus sporting a new look as Charlie Brown notices and says, I'm sorry that you have to wear glasses, Linus. And then Linus says, don't feel sorry for me, Charlie Brown. Why, I can see things now that I never knew even existed before. And he walks to Lucy and says, take Lucy, for instance. For the first time, I realize what a gorgeous creature she really is. Then he walks away with a smile on his face as Lucy says, glasses haven't improved only his sight. They've also improved his sarcasm.

Liz: At least she knows.

Harold: Yeah, right. Yeah, she didn't. She didn't fall for that the way Charlie Brown might m. Oh, Charlie Brown totally would have.

Jimmy: Linus and glasses. We've said it before. Great, Great little design.

Liz: Yeah.

Michael: So sad.

Liz: Why did he stop wearing them?

Michael: Laser surgery.

Harold: Well, once. Once John Lennon was doing it. This is over.

Jimmy: Yeah. You know, the other thing is, it's actually a pain. The draw glasses on characters.

Harold: Yeah.

Liz: So it just sort of faded away and nobody.

Jimmy: I think eventually there is a strip where he says he got a contact. Got contact lens.

Liz: That's weird.

Harold: Yeah. I mean, you look at the profile and you got the line of the. If you want to be true to where the line on the glasses would go. You're. You're covering the eye. And the eye, even if the little dot is expressive, especially in the Schulz world. So to lose that. It's great for the joke here, but I could see on an ongoing basis. Maybe you don't want to do that now.

Jimmy: I do think, though, like, the way he draws Marcie's glasses later. Oh, by the way, I was interviewed on  the Deconstructing Comics podcast.

Liz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jimmy: Well,  I was talking to him about what we might be doing coming up, and he had a suggestion for a title for one of our. And,  we can leave this for our listeners out there. We're thinking about doing two possible things for the next season, which is either Mean Girls, which is Patty and Violet, or. And this was Tim's suggestion for the title, Don't Call Me Sir, Marcie and Peppermint Patty Primer.

Harold: Yeah, those are both great.

Jimmy: If you guys want to vote. It's not necessarily what we're going to do, but if you want to make your voices heard,  it's gonna be either Mean Girls or Don't Call Me Sir.

Liz: You previously said the many moods of Marcie. And I like the idea of Marcie by herself. I mean, Peppermint Patty is such a powerful influence.

Jimmy: This is fine. Yeah. All right, well, or we could just recommend influences of Marcie.

Liz: I think because she changes, she has many arcs. 

Jimmy: Right, Tim, you're out. We're doing either Mean Girls.

Liz: Well, we could still call it Don't Call Me Sir.

Jimmy: But I thought it was just a great title.

Liz: Yeah, it's a wonderful title. And so people should go to Deconstructing Comics to listen to your interview with Tim.

Jimmy: If you can't get enough of me talking. 

January 6, 1964. Linus is standing there in classic thumb and blanket position, his head fully dented. And Lucy says to him, if you only knew how nauseated I get every time I see you holding that stupid blanket. And then Linus says, why don't you take a pill? Then he leans in very sarcastically and says, why don't you take a pill for relief of nausea caused by sight of little brother clutching blanket? And then we see Lucy has wrapped Linus's blanket around his mouth to shut him up and left.

Michael: Yeah, maybe that's why he's my favorite character. Just that sarcasm is so good.

Liz: But they are fighting fairly equally now.  I mean, she used to just scare him to death, but now he's holding up his own side.

Harold: He sure is. Yeah.  he's learned it from a master. A pill for relief of nausea caused by sight of little brother clutching blanket. Sounds like. Is that from the side of a box?

Jimmy: Well, why don't you take a pill? Sounds like something that would have been a stock phrase, maybe not among the whole. You know what I mean? Like I'm.

Harold: Oh, yeah, frustrated.

Jimmy: Oh, why don't you take a pill for it? Yeah, right.

Harold: That was a big thing in the 60s. Yeah, this was before people got a little more cynical about, you know, big pharma. Big pharma?  yeah, or over the counter meds and all that. I like that. It's got that clipped descriptor thing where it's not conversational. Relief of nausea caused by sight of little brother clenching blanket.

Liz: Possibly more information about their parents being doctors.

Harold: Oh,  yeah, yeah, that's true.

January 8, 1967. It's a snowy day and Lucy's outside. She says, hmm. Because off in the distance, you see Linus is,  basically finishing up snowman, and she comes over and says, what would you do if I pushed your snowman over? And Linus says, nothing. What could I do? You're bigger and stronger than I am. You're older, you can run faster. I really couldn't do anything to stop you. He continues, as Lucy just looks out at us with a blank expression. I realize full well that I am at your mercy where things of this sort are concerned. All I can do is simply hope that you will choose not to do so. And then Lucy just walks away. And then Linus goes back to working on the snowman, and he says, little by little, I'm becoming an expert at the soft answer.

Michael: Linus is definitely a democrat.

Jimmy: Yeah, I love that middle panel with the tiny little figures and the snowman. It's really cute.

Harold: Yeah. And,  why is Lucy missing one of her little saucer ellipses on the first panel around her eye? So weird. But, yeah, this is. This is great, Linus. And just to see him grow up a year at a time on this strip, it's pretty incredible. And the subtleties and the nuances of the characters are remarkable at this point.

Liz: Yeah, this really feels like the Linus that we come to know.

Harold: Yeah. It's even an oblique biblical reference, which is something he was famous for. Soft answer, Turneth away wrath or whatever. And it sure did.

Jimmy: Yeah. Totally flummoxed there.

Harold: He said, well, there's no satisfaction here. It's all. It's all diffused.

January 8, 1967. Lucy is making some toast, and then she brings it into a different room with her just looking at the blank toast like it's,  something she's very proud of. And she brings it into Linus, who's watching tv, and she says, here, I brought you a piece of toast. And Linus says, well, thank you. And then Lucy holds it back and says, thank you, dear sister. And then Linus, with a shaky little smile, says, thank you, dear sister. And Lucy continues, thank you, dear sister, greatest of all sisters. To which Linus replies, thank you, dear sister, greatest of all sisters. And then Lucy says, thank you, dear sister, greatest of all sisters without whom I'd never survive. And Linus, thank you, dear sister, greatest of all sisters without whom I'd never survive. Then Lucy gives him the toast and says, you're very welcome. And then Linus, alone in front of the tv, says, how can I eat when I feel nauseated?

Michael: Yes, he's changing.

Jimmy: And that's a classic Linus and Lucy.

Michael:  he's wimping out.

Harold: I remember this one as a kid, I related to this one and just the dynamics, goofy dynamics between siblings and love this strip. It’s, yeah, these characters are so rich at this point, just going back eight years or whatever. It's great there. But now we have layer after layer after layer of these characters that we're relating to these characters through the lens of Everything that's happened up until now, and even if you didn't, if you'd never seen this strip before in your life, I mean this really feels different. Unique.

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: You don't see this in comics.

Jimmy: I mean, another thing that's unique is just like those, those first two panels, like the abstractness of the backgrounds. If you look at the way he uses the cabinets in the first panel to carve out the negative space for the logo. So that really like. Yeah, the only the drawing is everything to the right and then it's just negative space of the cabinets to the left. That includes the Peanuts featuring good old Charlie Brown thing.

Harold: The Van Pelts have a lot of storage space in there.

Jimmy: Yeah, it's going to be a cabinet, you know, but it's just,  it works perfectly well. I mean there's no logic to how the door and the wall and everything works together. It's just rectangles. But you know, she's walking from one room to the other. That's great. Looks beautiful. 

Okay, so guys, this  is bringing us towards the end of another episode here. But let's sum things up for our listeners. What are you guys seeing? How are you feeling about the Van Pelts at this point? Have you had any insights this time around that you didn't have last time?

Michael: Well, I'm gonna tell you, I noticed something because basically the way I was finding these strips is I was going month by month and where you can see them all and kind of zipping down looking for Linus and Lucy strips. And there were so many,  probably every month in the 50s would have like 4.

Harold: Mhm.

Michael: First half of the 60s pretty much the same. Sometime around 1968, Snoopy started dominating the strip. It was after the Red Baron thing and that was at the expense of, of these Linus and Lucy strips. By 68 it was getting harder to find any. And in 69 because I picked a few more after that, it, I think it was, it  wasn't until like September that I found one. And then we get into, when we get into the 70s, Linus starts fading out a little bit. So this whole, I think he might have felt he kind of run the gamut what these two characters can do.

Harold: Well, it's interesting looking again at the ages of the kids. This is also probably around the time where at least the little kid interactions are not in his day to day experiences.  he's got older kids in the family now and Monty would be at the time of the strip be 15.

Jimmy: Right.

Harold: So those observational things that feel really authentic in the 50s are now have,  abstracted out, I think, to aspects of Schulz's personality.

Liz: And,  I think Meredith got married quite young. Didn't she get married in, like, at,  19?

Jimmy: I don't know. Yeah, maybe.

Liz: I'm pretty sure she was,  out of the house around younger than 20.

Jimmy: Wow.

Harold: Yeah. So that can change where you're pulling from. And it's interesting that, yeah, this kind of fantasy, Snoopy pops up around that time. Yes. Meredith was married to Gary Fredrickson in 1969. So, yeah, you're right. This is growing up. Kids are growing up.

Jimmy: Yep. It goes by fast when that happens. Yeah. It's so fun for me to see, because any kind of thing with siblings. Brothers and sisters, or if they're. Oh, God, if there's a large family like the Brady Bunch. I loved anything like that as an only child. So I like seeing the Linus and Lucy things. I don't know that I necessarily ever felt like I missed out on anything because of them, but it was fun to get a good insight into what it would be like to have an older sister. I did all my cousins,  and it was, you know, I lived in a small town. I had cousins everywhere.  they were all older than me, and,  they're all more sophisticated and rougher than me, too. So I do understand that aspect of it.

Harold: And I know, I learned from this strip, you know, those little moments where, you know, the soft learning, the soft answer, that stuff would make an impression, impact, you know, because I. That was my situation. I was almost two years younger than an older sister and stuff I hadn't thought about until I read a peanut strip. It's like, oh, maybe that's. Maybe that's a good way to handle that. Oh, really did help. Yeah.

Jimmy: Yeah. No, I feel that way, too, about this strip in particular.

Liz: Yeah.

Jimmy:  that Peanuts,  and Harriet the Spy when I was a kid were the two things that I read that felt like, oh, this is telling me something true. That maybe it's a true thing. Adults don't want kids to know if I could help myself, you know, and that it felt. It felt special because of that. You know what else feels special, though? Getting to hang out with you guys every week and talk about our favorite comic strip. 

So if you want to keep this conversation going, there's a couple different ways you can do it. First, go over, sign up for that great Peanuts reread on our good old website, unpacking peanuts.com you can also email us unpackingpeanutsmail.com you can follow us on social media where we are unpackpeanuts on Instagram and threads and npackingpeanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. And of course, you can always call or text our hotline at 717-219-4162. We would love to hear from you. 

And remember, all three of your hosts here for this show are cartoonists ourselves. So you can buy our books@unpackingpeanuts.com and there's going to be a link to the store right in the description of this very episode to make it easy for you.

Harold: And if you're an early listener to the podcast and are,  in the Philadelphia area on the 21st and 22nd of February, I will be at the Philadelphia Punk Rock Flea Market.

Jimmy: All right. Philadelphia Punk Rock Flea Market. And hey, since Peanuts is set,  as we all know, in Hennepin, Minnesota, thinking of everybody in Minnesota out there. Hope you're all well and take care. We love you and we'll see you in two weeks. Be of good cheer.

Harold: Yes, yes.

VO: Be of good cheer. Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner. Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark. For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on n Instagram and threads Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.