Mean Girls #2
Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. It's Mean Girls here on Unpacking Peanuts, our second episode of the season, and I'm really excited about it. And I'll be your host for the proceedings. My name's Jimmy Gownley, and you can read my new comics over on Gville comics.substack.com.
Joining me as always, are my pals, co hosts and fellow cartoonists. First of all, he's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People, as well as for this very podcast. He's the co creator of the original comic book price guide, the original editor for Amelia Rules, and the creator of such great strips as Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells, and Tangled River. It's Michael Cohen.
Michael: Say hey.
Jimmy: And he's executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a Former Vice president of Archie Comics and the creator of the Instagram sensation Sweetest Beasts, it's Harold Buchholz.
Harold: Hello.
Jimmy: And keeping us out of trouble and making sure everything runs smoothly, it's our producer and editor, Liz Sumner.
Liz: Howdy.
Jimmy: All right, guys, here we are. It's episode two of our long awaited Mean Girls series.
Harold: I keep thinking you're saying Meme Girls, like we were actually up to date and with it, social media culture.
Jimmy: If you think we are ever in danger of being up to date and with it.
Harold: Come on now.
Jimmy: We are not.
Harold: Come on. Oh, and by the way, Jimmy Gownley, congratulations on being nominated for a Harvey Award for In the Real Dark Knight. And that's on Gville that you just mentioned. So Jimmy has been now nominated for two awards for this online comic he's doing. So check it out. It's amazing.
Jimmy: It's free. Even better than being amazing. It's free. You could read it, right now for.
For the Price of Not One Dime. All right, so here we are, though, back, in the 50s with, with good old Violet Gray. She's our focus today. Is that correct?
Michael: No, it's actually Patty and Violet doing solo albuMiss
Jimmy: Oh, okay. Just like Kiss. you guys probably didn't know this, but Kiss, they're like, look, we are terrible as a unit, but if we could go off on our own and each make our own record, that would be four times as terrible.
Harold: So it's, it's, it's that kind of vibe.
Michael: Well, Ringo just had a solo album, so there you go. There you go.
Harold: Yeah, there's Kiss. Was that Keep it simple, Snoopy.
Jimmy: Yes, Keep it simple. Oh, that's a. There's a. That's a season.
Harold: Wow. These are just plucked off the vine.
Jimmy: Yep. All right, now, Michael, because this is your favorite. Well, one of your favorites, I should say, components of Peanuts in your favorite era. And you picked these strips. Tell us about the process of picking them.
Michael: Well, it's easy enough when you're only dealing with a decade and because I can skim through all the strips and just look for the characters. So that's.
Harold: Oh, yeah.
Michael: You know, and there's usually maybe with these characters is maybe two or three a month.
Jimmy: Uh-huh.
Michael: So I pretty much picked all of the ones where they were nasty, which was pretty much all of the ones they were in.
Jimmy: Now, what was it that attracted you to these characters when you were little? Did. Is this something you felt you saw in life or did you just find it funny?
Michael: Well, I mean, TV at the time, talking about 50s TV, where everybody was nice to each other all the time.
Michael: And polite and calling your friends moms like Mr. And Mrs. And. Yeah, it was kind of refreshing to see kids acting like actual kids. Like monsters.
Harold: Yeah. I don't know. Kukla, Fran and Ollie got pretty raw.
Michael: Did it? I don't remember.
Jimmy: All kidding aside, I do think the two kids that actually roughly talked like actual kids on television back then, and this is, this is a hot take. Is Leave it to Beaver.
Harold: Yes.
Jimmy: You agree?
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: Okay.
Harold: Yeah. Because, I mean, the story was that the, you know, they take the kids to and from school and, you know, the guys who were making the show were just hearing the kids in the backseat.
Jimmy: Oh, really? Yeah, Yeah, I think. Shut up, you little goof. Mom and dad, you know, that was very funny.
Michael: Okay, well, maybe.
Liz: My what a lovely home, Mrs.Cleaver
Michael: Maybe I'm misremembering the era.
Jimmy: No, no, I don't think you are. I just think that that was just like the one example I thought of that wasn't. I know exactly what you're talking about.
Harold: Yes. Yeah. Leave it to Beaver is kind of a misunderstood show.
Jimmy: It is, actually. Yeah. So, you know, we talked a little bit about this last time and we had a listener who wrote in and asked us a question. What would you do if you wanted to keep these characters in the strip longer? And I actually did think we didn't have a great answer. I thought if it was my assignment and you were supposed to. Someone said, okay, we have Patty and Violet, but we need to make them the same old Patty and Violet they've always been. But you somehow need to keep them up to date. I was thinking, well, if they're famous or not famous. But if we're saying they're shallow as characters, make the shallowness a part of it. And I would make them trend obsessed.
Liz: Ooh
Jimmy: and that because you could make. Because that would be a whole wild range of stuff that Charlie Brown could be picked on for. And yet it would have another level where you'd be able to look at them and realize how silly they are chasing these things.
Michael: Good idea. Why don't you do a strip?
Jimmy: Do that, obviously. but with a big setup. Okay. It's an elseworld.
Harold: Yeah. They don't alternate universe Peanuts. Why not?
Jimmy: Why not?
Harold: Well, actually, no, let's not do that.
Michael: Well, Mad magazine actually was doing a lot of that stuff in the 50s.
Liz: Yeah.
Michael: What if the Peanuts characters acted like real teenagers? I think. I'm not sure that was one. But it was stuff like that. Usually Wally Wood drew it.
Jimmy: We got anything else to say about these up front?
Michael: Well, this today's episode is, brought to you by. By the word bonk. Yeah, basically, this is Patty and Violet separate. And I thought it might be fun to analyze how they're approaches to putting down Charlie Brown differed.
Harold: If there is a difference, that'll be interesting to see. If you see anything that personality wise that actually jumps out.
Jimmy: All right, well, we're just gonna get to it then. If you guys wanna follow along with us, what you need to do is go over there to unpackingpeanuts.com, sign up for the great Peanuts reread. It'll get you one email a month that'll let you know what we're up to. So you could, find these strips for yourself online and follow along with us. So why don't you do that? For God's sake, If you haven't done it by now, what are you waiting for? Come on. There's no time like the present.
So as for us, let's get started here with
April 10, 1953. Charlie Brown and Violet Gray are walking down the street, and Violet says to Charlie Brown, you don't like me, do you, Charlie Brown? Charlie Brown kind of glares over his shoulder as they continue to walk, and he says, well, you don't like me either, so we're even. And then Violet says, you mean if I liked you, you'd like me? And Charlie Brown says, sure, it's only natural. And Violet walks away saying, Maybe, but it's not worth it.
Michael: This I think is a transition because we mentioned before, Violet was a very sweet little girl and her and Charlie Brown, they weren't an item, but there were only four, so what do you expect? And so I think this might have been. She still wasn't quite sure if she liked him or not.
Harold: He seems to be kind of on a league level playing field with Violet here.
Jimmy: yeah.
Liz: He also seems to get a lot shorter between panel two and panel three.
Harold: Yeah, you're right. And they got the little floaty walk on panels one and two. But when she walks away, she's. She's planted on the ground.
Jimmy: Firmly on the ground. That's actually an interesting choice.
Michael: And is that zipatone?
Jimmy: No, it's just lines.
Harold: Old fashioned crosshatching.
Jimmy: Yeah. Because we have a kind of a low res thing we're looking at. But it does look like cross or like zipatone when you zoom out.
Harold: It's funny how the Peanuts legs, when they're walking, you can't tell which leg's in front, which one's in back. So he doesn't mind if they are in exactly the same place from panel to panel, which I think is freeing because you know, I think I mentioned this before, but. Yeah, you know, if, if I'm doing a walk sequence, I feel like I have to mix up where the feet are. But you don't have to. According to Charles Schulz.
Michael: Wait. No, you can tell though because the arms are the opposite the leg.
Harold: Well that's true. Yeah. She does panel.
Michael: Then you're right. Your right leg is in front.
Harold: So the legs look the same but the arms are swinging.
Jimmy: Yeah. If people don't think about this. It's called contrapposto but obvious. Like every time your left leg walks.
Michael: That's what we had for dinner last night.
Jimmy: Oh my God.
Harold: It's good.
Jimmy: You want al dente contrapposto though, right?
Harold: I mean, you know these Italians,
Jimmy: when you do it wrong, it just looks wrong. It obviously looks like he's lumbering or the person is lumbering.
Harold: Because it's very unique.
Jimmy: No one thinks about in it.
Harold: Right.
Liz: So it, it seems familiar to me. I mean, I can remember times in high school where I liked somebody because they liked me. is that something that is universal?
Michael: Well, nobody ever liked me, so I don't.
Harold: We like you, Michael.
Michael: Thank you.
Harold: it's interesting. I mean, I think person. Different personalities are different ways. I mean, I. I had people that I liked that. It wasn't. Obviously they didn't like me. And then there. There were people who liked me and. And I wasn't particularly interested in them. It was just awkward. That's what I remember. You know, I guess just. It doesn't quite feel mutual and you don't know how to respond. But I mean, I think it certainly helps if somebody likes you and you. You like.
Jimmy: Well, I remember, but I don't know
Harold: if it makes you like him. Right.
Jimmy: I remember actually having a huge crush on a girl. Huge crush on a girl in seventh grade. And like, after months of just crushing on her, she said she liked me. And then I didn't know what to do.
Harold: Right.
Jimmy: And that was the end of it.
Harold: That was the end of it. So it broke the spell, huh? not.
Jimmy: Well, I mean, but neither one of us knew what to do. It's like, all right, well, have a nice day. Like, I don't.
Harold: So how many more years was this person in your life?
Jimmy: I guess the next year. Well, she was a year younger than me, so I guess. Yeah. The next year I went to high school and she was still in a different school. And then she was around. I mean, okay, yeah, still in town, but you know.
Harold: Yeah, I. Yeah, that stuff happens. Comes.
Jimmy: It's very strange. Like, oh, great. Oh, well, okay. All right. I don't know. All right, here's a really good one coming up here.
August 27th, 1953, Charlie Brown's on a swing. And Patty's, walking by. And Charlie Brown says, hey, Patty. And then she comes up to him and he says, how about giving me a push? And she's in front of him, and so she does. She just pushes him right from the front and he lands on his head. Bonk. And then she walks away going, that was a strange thing to ask for.
Harold: She's a little mean.
Michael: No, I actually almost didn't pick this because. Yeah, but she has to have, somewhere inside of her this evil streak to even think of doing that.
Liz: No, no, she's just very literal.
Jimmy: Yeah, I remember have. And I'm m not going to divulge the whole story because it's embarrassing, but I remember clearly someone telling me, do this. And I'm like, do that. And they're like, yes, do this. And what I understood as do this was completely wrong. And they're screaming at me, why are you doing that? It's like, I thought you told me to. But I mean, Charlie Brown got what he asked for.
Harold: Yeah. He's sitting on his swing, wanted to push, and he gets a push. Okay.
Michael: And this strip is brought to you by our word of the day, which is bonk. And remember, if you're falling, use bonk.
Liz: This is one that I read out, completely. I mean, I did not read ahead. I read each panel at a time. So that the punchline just really cracked me up, as listeners could tell.
Harold: No. Is that unusual for you, Liz, that you might kind of go, around the strip and see the punchline?
Liz: I'm not sure, but this was a really clear example of it that I did not see it coming.
Harold: Right, right. Yeah, I'm pretty much a straight ahead reader phase, I guess.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: I don't know that last panel until I hit it.
Jimmy: Although. Yeah. Again, on a comic page especially, it really is partly up to the artist to not blow that, because the size, the placement, the coloring, all of these things effect, whether that per. That's going to really draw your attention to it.
Jimmy: Actually this brings up another art question because we were talking about Al Williamson recently now, and like Michael, that's like one in your top two or three guys, right?
Michael: Yeah, like you guys. probably my top guy is Schulz, but it's Mark Schultz
Jimmy: as an artist.
Michael: Yeah.
Jimmy: Okay. All right. Well, that's fine, too. We could use that as an example. But yet you don't like, say or. I shouldn't put words in your mouth, but how do you feel about Neal Adams?
Michael: I never liked Neal AdaMiss
Jimmy: Right. Why
Michael: scratchy
Liz: Draws like Toth?
Michael: Yeah, well, he was one of the. He was influenced by Toth. No, it was too. He was trying to be too real. Too real, but not in a beautiful way. He was not drawing pretty, so he was trying to make people look more like people than they usually did in comics. And his inker is generally really scratchy.
Harold: Do you like some form of idealization in your cartooning then?
Michael: I like clean lines and clean inking. Not that I can do it, but I strive for it.
Jimmy: I think that's part, The reason I was asking about this is because, well, obviously I was thinking about it, but because it's not, we talk about it in terms of, well, realism or cartooniness or detail or no detail. But there is other. There's something. I mean, you could say by those ins. By those types of criteria, look at Neal Adams and Al Williamson. And go, well, they're the same. Or you look at Schulz and like Mel Lazarus, who did. And go, well, they're the same, but there are layers of levels of subtlety that thinks these things different. I mean, Neal Adams is completely different from Mark Schulz or Al Williamson.
Michael: Yeah.
Jimmy: But it's really hard to sort of pinpoint what it is. But I think the clean line thing comes down to part of it, because, on some part, even if it's really, really far, even if it's far as far apart as Mark Schultz's Xenozoic Tales and Peanuts, you know, there's a part of that drawing of that character that is so solid and clear that you can read it like a letter form. And when that goes away and, I think it's harder to get involved with the characters. And if that's done by, you know, scratchy pen lines or over reliance on too much ink or, you know, too much black or whatever, all of those things, I think, can make your eyes bounce off it, and then you just don't become involved with it.
Michael: Yeah, but it was pre-verbal, some of these decisions. It wasn't like we were able to analyze it because. No, now I can go back there. Was. All right, this is getting kind of nerdy here.
Jimmy: This is going--Now. Oh, well, just hang in there. Now we’re going to get…
Harold: Well, can never have it on this podcast
Michael: Okay. DC, which is, you know, Marvel, was not a player at this time in the 50s, but there was two editors, two main editors, and they had their own artists. And the way I look at it, all the good artists were working for Julie Schwartz.
Jimmy: Uh-huh.
Michael: And I loved those comics. And the other editors. It was Jack Schiff, basically had all the other guys, and he wasn't allowed. They weren't allowed to trade off artists or anything, so they had their stable. And the Julie Schwartz stuff I read constantly as a kid, and all the other. The Jack Schiff stuff I didn't like and never qualitatively.
Harold: How would you describe the difference between the Julie Schwartz bullpen and the?
Michael: clean, clean art. Basically, the Jack Shiff guys were very blotchy colors. And. Yeah, I mean, now I can. You can look at it and you go like, yeah, you can't read a Jack Schiff comic. They're terrible. But it's basically the same kind of stories.
Harold: so a lot of. A lot of our listeners would know Jack Kirby. When I think of Blotchy, I think Jack Kirby.
Michael: No, no, not at all. It, depended on his inker. Kirby, of all the artists of that period, was dependent on his inkers. Yeah, he could be absolutely the greatest, or it could be, like, unreadable.
Harold: Did he ever ink his own stuff?
Michael: Very rarely.
Harold: What does that look like when he got a chance to do his own thing?
Michael: Well, he was the. His main inker in the 40s was Joe Simon.
Harold: Yeah. And I can't read that stuff.
Michael: Yeah. And Simon/Kirby. when Kirby tried to ink himself, he was kind of imitating Simon's inking, which.
Harold: So he liked Simon's look, or at least he wanted to be consistent.
Michael: Well, they stuck together for 25 years.
Harold: Yeah. I mean, I look at, like, Boys Ranch, which was something that they did kind of on their own, and I just can't read it. It's what Jimmy was talking about. It was. It's a bunch of blotches of ink, and I can't put them together and pull them into a character.
Michael: Yeah, well, he had fight for it, you know, in the 50s, he started going and experimenting with different inkers. And it was clearly, for me, Dick Ayers. As soon as he came in, it was like, this is classic Kirby. I know you guys--
Harold: Okay, so he's the guy.
Michael: Don't think highly of him, but I think he's.
Jimmy: Why do you say. You always say that? I never have ever said a bad thing about Dick Ayers.
Michael: Yeah. You said he's not the best inker for Kirby.
Jimmy: That's right. I said I like Joe Sinnot slightly more so That's--
Michael: No, but Ayers is not respected as a Kirby inker. Yeah.
Harold: And of course, I never said anything out of sheer ignorance.
Michael: I assume you guys just follow the trends.
Harold: You know us. Yeah, that's us.
Liz: If somebody. If a listener who didn't know about classic comics wanted to know about a sample of, like, Neal Adams or the difference between scratchy and clean. What. What should they look up?
Jimmy: Well, Neal Adams is most famous for his work probably on Batman or Green Lantern, Green Arrow, all of those things.
Liz: What period?
Jimmy: 1970s
Michael Yeah. 1970s, late 60s, very early 70s.
Harold: Is there any history book you guys really like that just jumps out and says, hey, this is what was going on in comic books back in the day.
Michael: I mean, I've read a lot of books analyzing 40s, 50s, 60s books. But since I wasn't reading them in the 70s, yeah, I'd read comic book artists and all that stuff.
Jimmy: Yeah. There was a book that Harvey Kurtzman put out.
Michael: Harvey. Yeah, you're plugging Harvey.
Jimmy: Yeah. Right. Since I'm nominated for the award called From Aargh to ah. This is actually a double because it was. It's called From Aargh to Zap. A visual history of the comics. And it goes all the way up from the, you know, it goes from the 30s to the 90s. And that was put out by Byron Price, who used to publish Amelia. And you could find those cheap. And they're huge. They're like, you know, 11 by 14 or something. They're really cool. Yeah. Yeah.
Harold: So that's a good introduction to.
Jimmy: Yeah, Because Harvey Kurtzman was reaching the end of his life, they relied on using a lot of art and minimal, discussion from Harvey. But it actually makes it a better book because you can see what he's talking about, you know.
Harold: Okay, so he's commenting throughout the book.
Jimmy: Yeah. The different art,
Liz: the title again,
Jimmy: from Aargh to Zap.
Liz: Thank you.
Jimmy: A Visual History of Comics.
Harold: I don't think I've seen that. I'll have to check it out myself.
Jimmy: Yeah, it's very cool.
November 13th,1953, Patty and Charlie Brown are outside, and Charlie Brown's outraged about something. He's shaking his fist in the air, and he says, I'm through with school. I quit. And a delighted Patty says, quit? Ha. You must be crazy, Charlie Brown. Then they go take their seat on the step outside their yard on the curb there, and Patty says to him, you can't quit school. They won't let you. You've gotta go for 12 more years. The next panel, Charlie Brown is in complete Edvard Munch existential terror as she continues. Do you hear me? 12 more years. 12 long years. Every day, year in and year out. 12 years. 12. And then Charlie Brown can't take it. Just runs away screaming.
Michael: Once again, this is a case of Patty not being purposely cruel.
Jimmy: She's just saying it like it is, man.
Michael: Yeah. So maybe she's nicer than Violet. Possibly.
Jimmy: Okay, well, I think you have something, to it in the fact that they're worse together, which certainly that has happened in the real world.
Harold: We don't need to look at too many examples of that.
Harold: So Patty might actually be going along with Violet's. As Violet goes dark, she kind of goes along with her, maybe.
Jimmy: Yeah. Or they just play off each other, you know, like, I've had that experience. you, know when you're like, oh, that guy's not bad if it's just me and him hanging out or.
Harold: But if it. Right, yeah. But then, yeah, someone else is there, and then they'll just dig into their show or whatever. Their vibe.
Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: I love the blank eyes that show his absolute. I mean, that is existential horror.
Liz: M. And is this the first appearance of Yaaah
Jimmy: the first appearance of Yaaah.
Harold: Charlie Brown's like Little Orphan Angst eyes.
Jimmy: that's stuff that gets you on Mystery Science Theater, people. Boom.
Harold: That's awesome.
Jimmy: God, that really is great. I also like in the same panel, Patty gripping her fists that she's.
Harold: Yeah, she's really, she's really delivering that.
Jimmy: I don't remember thinking 12 years because
Harold: I think if I would have been
Jimmy: cognizant of that too much, I think I would have actually lost my mind. But I do remember on the first day of school thinking 180 days. I'm feeling like Cool Hand Luke. Like, oh my God, how are we getting out of this?
Liz: My sisters went to boarding school and I was five years and seven years younger than them. And I was very excited and I remember clearly the moment when I said only five more years until I can go to Westtown.
Jimmy: wow. And were you happy when you got there?
Liz: I was.
Jimmy: That's amazing.
Harold: That's great.
February 6th, 1954. Violet has shown up at Charlie Brown's house. And they're standing outside on Charlie Brown's stoop and Violet says, I'm going to have a tea party and I'm not going to invite you. Charlie Brown, playing a cool, walks away with his hands in his pockets. That's all right. I don't like tea anyway. And then, Violet says, what do you like? And Charlie Brown says, I like hot chocolate. And then without missing a beat, Violet says, I'm going to have a hot chocolate party and I'm not going to invite you.
Harold: Oh, Violet.
Liz: He should have known. He should have known.
Jimmy: Yeah, that was a setup, buddy.
Michael: Yeah.
Liz: And doesn't it look like they're at Charlie Brown's beach house?
Michael: Oh, they have a beach house? Most barbers did.
Harold: Oh, is that true?
Michael: On the seaside.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: What would you name your beach house if you were a barber? The Permanent Wave.
Harold: Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I was just envisioning.
Liz: You should write for Mystery Science Theater.
Jimmy: I'm trying out. I'm trying out.
Harold: This is it.
Michael: Yeah.
Harold: He got the gig.
Jimmy: Oh, hey, though, you know, related to us talking about Mystery Science Theater. You know, the seasons you worked on are now streaming everywhere.
Liz: Oh, tell us where.
Jimmy: Well, I don't know off the top of my head.
Liz: But you know, how can they tell which ones are, Harold episodes?
Jimmy: It's season 11 and season 12, the Gauntlet.
Liz: Okay.
Harold: Yeah, it's weird. All 13 episodes are now in rotation randomly on 24 hour streaming channels like Pluto TV, Tubi TV, YouTube TV, Roku TV, you name it. Shout Factory, that's what they're famous for, is if there's a place where you can show stuff and get some ad revenue, it's going to be there.
Michael: So do you get residuals?
Harold: Not in any. Well, the kind of residuals that you'd rather frame.
Jimmy: Yeah, well, yeah. So everybody's got to check it out there. There are some Laugh Riot episodes of those seasons. They're just so, so good.
Harold: Yeah. And I got an announcement coming up probably in the next episode of. In the little event that's going to be coming up to hopefully some of you guys might be able to.
Liz: Ooh, teaser.
Jimmy: Awesome. Very exciting.
April 13, 1954. Violet and Charlie Brown are sitting on the curb. And Charlie Brown, fishing for something, says, nobody loves me. Violet doesn't say anything. Charlie Brown says, nobody even likes me. And then he continues, in fact, nobody even tolerates me. To which Violet says, we do, too.
Michael: That's nice of her.
Jimmy: now this is not necessarily as laugh out loud funny as the other ones, but there's a part of me that thinks this is a better joke. Like there's. I don't know. I don't know what exactly it is about it, but it's just that I don't know that I've seen this exact type of setup even in a comic strip before, you know?
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: This person heightening it three times and then it's like the person just waiting to come in for the. The kill on the last one.
Harold: Or that's the one. That straw that breaks the.
Jimmy: Pushes them over the.
Harold: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like we tolerate you. What do you say? What are you saying? and it's about, you know, it's about her, not him.
Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You want.
Harold: So sad for himself. And then she's upset that she's being mischaracterized, you know.
Michael: Well, she's sitting with him, talking to him. That's pretty nice.
Liz: Yeah. Why. Why is she there if she, doesn't have feelings for it? I mean, some kind of.
Harold: Yeah, there's a lot of. Lot of layers to that.
Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. Right. Cause there's an element of Charlie Brown, like, well, this is a moment you could just be there and not focusing on the fact that nobody loves you while someone is there with you.
Harold: And this is really early Charlie Brown in this mode. And you can see the things that he's doing that could rub someone the wrong way. Day in and day out, he keeps doing stuff like this. And so he's gonna start to be mercilessly teased. Which goes back to the whole idea. And we see it in Lucy when somebody is out of line or appears to be out of line and there's some way to get back into line and they'd be better off. The teasing and the harsh words, are they sometimes somewhat justified? Maybe there's better ways to do it or say it, but sometimes is it right for someone to jar you back into that reality that maybe you don't need. You can something up and you didn't need to be carrying a burden you're, you're on having on your back. But.
Jimmy: Well, I think that's all true. Yes, I, I absolutely think that's, that's true. 100% true. And I think the genius of writing it in some ways that way is that the kid character understands that there's a disconnect and a problem and they want to be able to fix that problem, but they don't have the social skills and the tactics to be able to do it any other way. Because the other thing about sarcasm and, and that, or put downs or any of that stuff, it is a defense mechanism in part. Like in Girardville, everybody cuts each other all the time and it's all, well, I mean, you know, if friends are doing it, it doesn't mean it's not meant to be mean or angry, but it's a defensive mechanism because you can't say the things you actually want to say, which are, ah, nine times.
Harold: Well, I had a friend who, grew up in Youngstown, Ohio, similar situation. You know, it's, it's a very blue collar, very. You had to be strong, you had to be tough. And he swore by growing up in Youngstown because he said it made him a strong person, it made him feel secure with others when they didn't agree with you. He was kind of an advocate for old school. You know, just be a little rough with each other. It's okay. You're gonna, you're all building each other up. You're not giving up on each other. You're not leaving each other, you're. You're engaging with each other. And iron sharpens iron and all of that. And he, he, he kind of, he always kind of pressed for that and often in, in places where that weren't Youngstown, Ohio. And sometimes people would take offense. You know, this is good, you know, just join me, you know.
Jimmy: Yeah, right. But when you're the one person doing it, it's no longer.
Harold: Well, yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. But if you're actually openly making a case for it and saying, no, this is a good thing, it's slightly different because he lets you in on what he's doing instead of you just feeling, like, knocked over. It's like, whoa, I'm not used to that, you know?
Liz: Yeah, I think there might be some gender difference in that attitude. I remember a time when I was in grad school and there were a couple of the professors were playing that way together. I mean, they were putting each other down in a way that made me and some of my female classmates really uncomfortable because it seemed like a power struggle. But, we had a discussion about it, and it was something that. It was explained to me that, no, this is kind of boys roughhousing in a verbal way. And it's. Wasn't something common or normal for the women.
Harold: Right. So it was almost like a respect kind of. it's got a lot of layers to it. After you were told that, did that change the way? Were you still uncomfortable or were you like, okay, I can see it through this lens, and it's okay.
Liz: it opened my eyes and I started seeing it other places and realizing, oh, this is like the way brothers mess around with each other. And I had sisters and I didn't know.
Harold: Yeah, I mean, it's weird I've mentioned this before, but in Rochester, New York. Yeah. Everyone's kind of rough and tumble about their opinions of you. Similar to what we're seeing in these Peanuts strips. Moved to Missouri. Everybody's nice. You don't know who's not, who doesn't like you. Because the rule is everyone has to be nice. And so all of a sudden, you're at this huge disadvantage because you don't know who doesn't like you. Because it used to be obvious. Now you're in this. This community where it's like, oh, the. The people that wish I didn't exist are hidden to me, and I'm. They're like landmines. You're walking around. And that was really hard at first. And then, you know, once you learn the rules, you know, I'm. I'm thick. I'm slow about that stuff. But once I kind of figured out the rules, and, I way preferred it because it's a much more pleasant place to. To be. Cause everyone's generally being nice, and you don't have to hear someone, you know, cutting you down because they're in a bad mood or whatever.
Jimmy: Well, okay. Because that's the other thing. Is that the dark side of it is, then you can go, oh, I was only kidding. And you could say anything and pretend that it was kind of. And in the world now, online, where irony does not translate. It just doesn't, you know, it gives. I think this is one of the big problems we have with young men is that they, like, if I said something and I said something edgy or whatever among my friend group or whatever in. In Girardville, it would be among five people, and they would tell me I would, you know, yes or no.
Harold: Right.
Jimmy: But. But if I put that online now and I get a bunch of people that attacks me, attack me, I go, I'm just kidding. I, was like, if I get. But if the same tweet gets a bunch of response from people, positively, even if I maybe was kidding now, it's
Harold: like, oh, this just gave me some power.
Jimmy: You're right.
Liz: Engagement.
Jimmy: Yeah. Right.
Harold: Yes.
Jimmy: And that does. And that's where we get in the probleMiss
Michael: Yep.
Harold: Yeah. Yeah. Well, going back to the strip here, one thing I really like in this is that last panel's response of Charlie Brown. The look is again, there's. There's a lot to this. There's a depth to this. All these little choices he's making in the strip. the same strip drawn by somebody else wouldn't have the depth of this strip. Because Charlie Brown, I don't know how you describe that look, but he's. He's kind of like, he's listening. He's mildly surprised. Yeah, there's. There's almost like a little bit of hope in there. She's yelling at him. We do like, we do like, we do tolerate you. And it's like this mixture of all sorts of really, it's a blank look, but it's not a blank look. And you can just read layers into it because he is a cartoonist. Hasn't decided for you what that means. And so you can just look at it and for a long time and somehow find multiple layers that are there. And if, we could totally see a different cartoon, it's a gag cartoonist, Bigfoot gag cartoonist, doing this same kind of gag. And it would be just an incredibly over the top in your face kind of thing where you. You don't. You don't lean into it. You got to kind of lean back. And I think that's what Schulz was so good at is he got you to lean into these characters and then you find. Find that you fall in love with m them.
Jimmy: Absolutely.
June 8, 1954. Charlie Brown's just trying to watch some TV in his own house, I assume. And Violet's behind him going, you're a hopeless case, Charlie Brown. Nobody respects you because you're a flop. A complete flop. Charlie Brown actually has to turn away from the TV to get that. And then a scowling Violet walks away. Charlie Brown turns back to the tv and then, with a smile on his face, says, too, Violet. Miss Francis likes me.
Harold: Aww.
Jimmy: Now, I know we talked about Miss Francis in the past, but, Michael, you want to give us a Miss Francis update?
Michael: No, this was actually. I almost cut this one because we did this, and it was an obscurity. Yes, because I didn't know, and I still don't know.
VO: Peanut Obscurities Explained.
Harold: It was a show called Ding Dong School. And she. She. Yeah, this. This educator, she got early on into children's television, and it was like the Romper Room or the PBS kind of thing on regular television before Mr. Rogers. And, yeah, she was. You were in a kind of a school setting with this teacher, and she obviously had a lot of love for the kids, and she. And that's one of the cool things about these types of shows. I was just thinking about it again this morning. a show where the person in the show addresses you is so incredibly powerful, especially when they're talking to you about you. And that's. Mr. Rogers was all about that, right?
Michael: Yeah.
Harold: And not. Not some guy just reading you the news. I'm just talking about somebody who somehow seems to know you're on the other side. And it's kind of cool to see it in this strip that, despite the harsh, harsh words from Violet, you know, just bounces right. Right off at Charlie Brown. And you can see how early this is in tv because he's looking at this really nice TV set that has all this. What do you call the filigree or whatever, the molding on it.
Liz: Wood grain.
Harold: And the TV actual screen is less than half of the height of the TV set because the little tubes were so tiny. And yet this little round screen you're looking at in the early 50s, and
Jimmy: it really reminds you how old these strips are
Liz: before I was born. But I'm imagining a backstory where Violet wanted Charlie Brown to do something other than watch tv. And he just wanted to come in and watch his show, and so that's why she's so angry at him.
Jimmy: Yeah, I can see that for sure.
Harold: And I heard somebody say years ago, you know, we were talking about gender differences, Liz, that as a rule, A very important thing for males is respect, and for women is love. That was what one person's opinion. They were trying to just boil it down. And I think the respect thing is. It's generally true for guys that that's. For some reason, if you, if you could be loved or respected, which would be the most important one for you? It's an interesting idea. And it's interesting that Schulz chooses respect for Violet to be saying that's what that, you know, you're not respected because you're a flop. That's the problem. It's not. And he often says, nobody likes me, nobody loves me. But she's saying, no one respects you.
Jimmy: Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. And that's true. It's like, you know, Charlie Brown, a lot of the criticism is coming from the things he does or like the bat, the baseball stuff, you know, you know, Charlie Brown, how, how much he brings on himself by choosing to carry, like, the weight of the baseball team on himself when he just can't do
Harold: it and he chooses to do something he's not good at, which is admirable and frustrating.
Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, I mean, it's, like, it's. Honestly, it's as simple as if I would have said, no, no, Liz, we don't need you to edit and produce this thing. Right. We would be the Charlie Brown team.
Harold: Right. Oh, well.
Jimmy: Or forget the podcast, Lennon McCartney. The smartest thing that John Lennon ever did was not look at Paul McCartney and go, he's someone to be beaten. he's someone I have to be afraid of. No, no, he's someone to integrate, you know, to get friendship, is going to get us further than competition, even if there is competition within the friendship.
Harold: Is that, Isn't that amazing? What a difference that makes in a person's life if they just made that choice once in their life to say, yeah, you're not competition. You're something that we're going to integrate with and we're going to do it together. Together, we're going to succeed. That's so powerful. Yeah.
Jimmy: Yeah. And if someone like John Lennon could do that, we could do that. You see what I mean, right?
Harold: Yeah, yeah.
Jimmy: You know, all the people will come to know anyway and form bands.
Liz: But I just, I like the fact that Charlie Brown hears her, but actually doesn't care. In this case, he's not taking in her cruel words. He's gone back to his program.
Harold: Yeah. It's making an argument that someone through a television set.
Harold: Is making a case to him that what she says doesn't matter so much. And that's interesting and it's cool. I'm happy for Charlie Brown here. He's got somebody on his side.
Jimmy: Well, while Charlie Brown contemplates his parasocial relationship, we'll let you contemplate yours. I will take a break, and we'll come back on the other side, answer the mail, and do more strips.
Liz: Alrighty.
VO: Hi, everyone, thank you for listening and engaging with us. Your appreciation makes this effort a real pleasure. And now we're asking that you support our work. If you enjoy the show, we hope you'll join us on Patreon as a contributor. Those of you who can't, for whatever reason, that's okay. We've been there. We're glad you're here. Thank you for being an essential part of unpacking Peanuts.
Jimmy: And we're back. I'm hanging out in the mailbox. Liz, do we got anything?
Liz: Well, we still have a bunch of wonderful questions from Wally, and you referred to his question earlier that you had done a little more thinking about. But here's another good one, and it's kind of related to what we were talking about. How would you think this strip would have evolved had it continued for the next 26 years?
Harold: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.
Michael: I mean, his condition was worsening, so you'd have to posit a lot of things. He probably was not able to draw as well, and that was probably going to get worse. Is shaking. Yeah. So it would have looked a lot different. He might have had to bring on an assistant, like an inker or something.
Harold: Yeah. Of the things that happened in culture and life for 26 years, which ones do you think he would have kind of latched onto and incorporated? Because he just had to.
Michael: Well, sooner or later, the biggest decision. I think the biggest decision anyone can make when they're about to do something creative is determine if it's after 1990. It changes everything. Something set in the modern day has so many devices it can use to further the plot.
Harold: Would, the characters be carrying? Yeah, yeah.
Michael: I mean, people communicate differently. They find out things differently. You know, if it's a detective story, it's. It's two entirely different genres. If it's, you know, prepared, would they
Harold: be texting each other? Would they be with their phones? Would he bring that into the world, do you think?
Michael: And it's a big decision. I mean, your whole story, your whole thing is going to, depend on whether people have access to this stuff. It changes everything.
Harold: I think Rerun would have been going door to door selling ash cans of his underground comics.
Jimmy: Yeah, I would have loved, I would
Harold: have loved to have seen Rerun out there with his comics. Not just drawing them in kindergarten, but actually taking them around. It's now part of his identity and how he would relate to anybody who might read his comic or might not read his comic.
Michael: Yeah.
Jimmy: Lucy would be able to be a podcast host doing self help podcasts. Yeah.
Liz: Would they age?
Jimmy: No.
Michael: even if they don't age, this strip is about. About relationships.
Harold: Yeah.
Michael: And relationships change drastically when it's not about. You don't have to be hanging out, you know, sitting on the street corner with your friends.
Liz: they're on zoom calls.
Michael: Yeah.
Harold: Yeah. So what, what would Lydia be doing to mess with Linus?
Michael: Well, she'd be posting stuff about him to humiliate him.
Harold: Enigmatic things.
Michael: Yeah.
Jimmy: Well, here's the other thing is like the kid, like I see kids, you know, making posts about very important large world events that they don't understand, couldn't possibly understand. And I'm not criticizing them for talking about it because they're living in the world too and they have a right to talk about it. But I'm grateful that I didn't have to do that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't know. Todd Selgrades--
Harold: yeah.
Jimmy: Take on the estate tax was right. You know what I mean?
Harold: Right. Right. Well, you know, and I would think if anyone became a social media star self proclaimed, it's Snoopy. Here's the world famous social media star taking pictures of his dog dish, you know, of his meal.
Jimmy: Amazing. Oh my God, yes.
Liz: Yes.
Harold: And then he's insecure about it and seeing all these, you know, but at the same time, he's got likes. Is in love. You know, this is his Valentine cards. So that would have been really fun to see because Schulz would have mixed it up, I'm sure. But I can't. I would have loved to seen Snoopy messing around with social media and, you know, publishing his self. Publishing A Dark and Stormy Night on some fanfic site.
Jimmy: Here's the world famous Internet troll and. Oh yeah, and it would be like one word he would post that's like really silly or stupid. I don't know.
Michael: Right.
Harold: Yeah. yeah, Bonk.
Michael: Schulz was around.
Jimmy: Strikes again.
Michael: He was around and he didn't touch, that stuff.
Liz: well, it was pretty young.
Harold: There was an Internet reference. Right. We, we did find at least one
Michael: Does a computer appear in the strip ever?
Jimmy: Well, we again, would have to go listen to a podcast that would have covered that at the time.
Liz: Yes.
Michael: Yeah, there was personal computers for 30 years of peanuts.
Harold: Right.
Jimmy: Well, I was listening to a. That my famous favorite, podcast, Bananas for Bonanza. And they had Gillian Flynn on the woman who wrote Gone Girl. And she's like, it's a nightmare writing modern mysteries because there's so much like, you know, cell phone towers ping everyone's location. There's cameras on every single corner, on every single house.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: You know, there's your Internet footprint and it's.
Michael: It is.
Jimmy: It's actually probably harder to commit a real murder in life.
Michael: Yeah. Well, I mean, I.
Jimmy: Probably.
Harold: Probably.
Liz: Let's find out.
Michael: When I decided to do a graphic novel, I wanted to do one long graphic novel in my life. And it was a big decision when to set it and how to set it because I didn't want technology. And I. Basically the solution I came up with is let's posit a world where there is. It just stopped. There is no technology, and I don't have to worry about that stuff.
Harold: That's interesting.
Jimmy: What I'm interested in finding out is like, how much like when the youngest generation now, the kids that are kids, when they grow up and are creating their own art, how they'll be able to. I'm sure it'll just be like, this is water situation. They'll incorporate it effortlessly.
Liz: Yeah. So thank you, Wally, for all of your good questions.
Harold: Yeah, that was fun.
Liz: And that's it for the mail.
Jimmy: Okay, well, let me, go to the Google voice because we got some stuff here on the old hotline. All right. First we heard from Shaylee Robson, super listener. Shaylee. She says, hey, gang, long time no speak. Sorry for being so quiet on my end. Up north, life, got busy and I've been hyping up the 25th anniversary of Amelia Rules. Shaylee has, by the way, posted on, like, Instagram, Amelia Rules 25th Anniversary Fan Art challenge. So you can find her.
Michael: Oh, how cool.
Jimmy: Yeah. I wanted to ask you something movie media based. There's rumors going around that there's a new Peanuts movie in the works where Charlie Brown meets his pen pal. How do you feel about this? Would any of you check it out if it releases? All right, so I did not know there was going a new Peanuts movie going around. Well, first off, this one line description doesn't sound as good as the idea I have for it, so you guys should call me there. So.
Michael: Yeah.
Harold: Yeah. I have heard this is a thing and, you know, the question, would you check it out? You know, whenever they. We've talked about it. Right. You know, certain paths you can go down. And it's weird, sometimes it's the ones that are the most tangential, the ones that would be the most fun to explore because they don't. They don't step on the toes of what's already out there as much, but it still feels like Peanuts. This one I'm kind of on the borderline with, because, you know, the pen pal. You just enjoy the mystery of the unseen pen pal. And all of a sudden now the, you know, it's, it's, it's Jacques from Paris or whatever.
Michael: Yeah.
Harold: You know, it's like. It's like they showed the little red haired girl in the specials. And it's like, I don't know what you gain from it. If Schulz is not there because you're now adding something somewhat weighty feeling.
Jimmy: It's fan fiction
Harold: because essentially, when you go back and read the Peanuts, where he's writing to the pen pal, you can't help but have in the mind something Schulz didn't have in his mind and that I'm not so keen on. I don't have an Apple TV subscription, so I've been oblivious to all of the new stuff. And I know a lot of it's very popular. People are really enjoying it, but, yeah,
Jimmy: I think that a lot of stuff they're doing on Apple has been real nice. Yeah, I don't really want to meet Charlie Brown's pen pal, though. Michael, you're going to be in line first day, right?
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Liz: We'll see it in Italian.
Jimmy: There you go.
Michael: I hear this Charlie Brown Christmas thing is good on someday.
Jimmy: and we also got a text from good old Captain Billy who says, hi, superfan, Captain Billy here, in reference to the Sidekicks 3 episode. Michael stated that younger listeners didn't know the joys of a rotary phone. He writes, younger listeners! your youngest listener still has a stack of VHS tapes next to the davenport in the rumpus room.
Harold: Well, well
Jimmy: yeah.
Harold: Are there any young listeners here? You want to pipe up and let us know you're there and what it is we're talking about that you just fast forward through.
Liz: Would you like Harold to explain what Capt. Billy was just talking about?
Jimmy: I was actually just talking about rotary phones the other day. And the two things I miss about the rotary. Well, I miss a couple. Loved that it stayed in the kitchen and I could go about my life. But the physical weight of those old phones.
Harold: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Jimmy: Great. And I don't like the clarity of speaking to someone on a landline versus these cell phones.
Harold: Yeah. And next to the automatic sprinkler, one of the most satisfying sounds that we no longer hear.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Michael: In old movies, if, like, there was a burglar in the house, you can bonk him on the head with the phone. Yeah, that's.
Jimmy: That's right. It was a built in weapon.
Liz: While I was editing the Seven Deadly Sins, I thought it was a terribly missed opportunity that we didn't give a shout out to Captain Billy's Whiz Bang.
Jimmy: Oh, for God's sake. Yeah, that's true. All right, so thanks for you guys who, wrote in or called again, if you want to, reach out to the hotline at 717-219-4162 or you can email us at unpackingpeanutsmail. com and remember, when I don't hear from you, I worry. All right, what do you say we get back to the old strips?
September 14, 1954. Violet and Charlie Brown sitting on the curb. Violet says to Charlie Brown, you don't like coconut, do you, Charlie Brown? And Charlie Brown says, I can't stand coconut. And Violet says, well, I'm going to have a party, and we're going to serve a, coconut cake, coconut cookies, coconut ice cream. Charlie Brown is unresponsive to this. But then the next panel as Violet says, coconut milk and coconut cream pie, and all the prizes will be coconut candy. And Charlie Brown looks totally sick of this. And then he runs away screaming Yaaah. And Violet watches him run away with a big smile on her face.
Michael: He is a sensitive little kid, isn't he?
Liz: He is, but she's still coming and sitting next to him.
Michael: Yeah. What do they talk about when she's not insulting him? That's what I'd like to see.
Harold: Well, it's such a cute face on her, you know, little side eye, giant smile as he runs away. It's weird. It's like she's being playful with him, but he's not in on it. That's the vibe I get for this one. Yeah, he doesn't know how to be playful with Violet, so she just enjoys herself.
Liz: It's still. It's kind of a mean playfulness. I mean, it's sort of one of those only kidding kind of things.
Michael: Yeah. She's not actually gonna do it.
Liz: No. But she likes making him sick.
Harold: But at least he's invited.
Liz: Well, she doesn't say that.
Harold: Well, then what's he worried about?
Jimmy: Yeah, right,
Harold: I'm not gonna be there.
Harold: I'm gonna be going to the chocolate party.
September 26, 1954. Pigpen’s sitting in a mud pile. He's a mess. And this is a Sunday, by the way. And he says, Because across the panel from him, he sees Violet, talking to Snoopy. And she says, hi, you cute little doggy. And then she pats him on the head. Pat, pat. And Pigpen looks at this and just sighs. And then he walks over and says to Violet, gee, I wish someone would hug me like that. And Violet, mmm. And she gives Snoopy a big hug. And Snoopy walks away feeling very self satisfied. And then Violet says to Pigpen, well, maybe someone would if you'd clean up once in a while. Pigpen. And Pigpen does just this over the next four panels. He runs home, takes a bath, cleans himself up, gets all dressed up nice with a tie and everything. And then, presents himself to Violet just as proud as can be. Shiny as a brand new penny. And Violet says, I said maybe.
Jimmy: Big Pen is, disappointed by this. But then goes right back to the mud hole, completely cakes himself in mud again and says, oh, well, it's kind of nice to be free again.
Michael: I picked this just to prove that Charlie Brown wasn't the only one getting it from Violet.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: Yeah. Well, now, how much of this is mean? And how much of this is just life?
Jimmy: Well, right. Because he is a mess.
Harold: You know, she, she's not saying she's the hugger for him. You don't just randomly hug people.
Jimmy: Yeah, right.
Harold: No reason. So she is. How out of line is Violet here?
Jimmy: Yeah, I don't think she's out of line at all. I mean, like, you know, she could be nicer about the things she says, but again, like that would not be. That would be if she actually, if Pig Pen actually listened to her advice. It would help him out.
Harold: Yeah. You know, but
Jimmy: as, opposed to just the coconut thing, which, you know
Harold: she's not angry when she says. I said maybe.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: You know, she's not being judgmental or.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: Not I wouldn't hug you or anything. So she's just. Yeah.
Jimmy: And that is what she said.
Harold: Right. She's clarifying. I don't know. Michael, what do you think? Is this being mean?
Michael: no, no. I think Pigpen's at fault here for thinking she was saying something she didn't.
Jimmy: Right.
Harold: And competing with Snoopy, that's a tough. That's a tough one.
Liz: yeah really. But he does look kind of cute with his hair.
Harold: All of this. He's cool to see. Yeah. Little Republican. He's like Dan Quayle Pigpen here.
Jimmy: Oh, those were the days.
Liz: Another obscurity.
Jimmy: Dan Quayle with an e at the end.
Liz: not like potato.
Jimmy: You are young out there. There was a time when if you were a public servant, like a vice president or whatnot, and you spelled potato wrong, the world lost their minds, and you had to just hide and be humiliated for decades.
Harold: Yeah. Now a spell check messes something up, or you mess something up. That's just par for the course. That's just the way life is.
Jimmy: Well, yeah, for sure.
February 28, 1955. Patty and Charlie Brown are outside, and Patty says to him, you've never been anything but good old Charlie Brown. And now she's more aggressive, pointing at him, actually, like, poking him in the chest and saying, and that's all you are now, just good old Charlie Brown. Now she's legitimately ranting, and that's all you'll ever be, just good old Charlie Brown. And then Charlie Brown, completely decimated by this, goes, what's the sense in living?
Michael: I think he's joking, but he sure doesn't look like it.
Harold: No, no, he doesn't look like he's joking.
Jimmy: Well, yeah, I mean, it's gallows humor, because he really feels hurt by this. But I. But it is like it could be seen as gallows humor.
Liz: Being good old Charlie Brown is wonderful.
Harold: Well, that's the thing. I mean, this is so Charles Schulz. And, you know, he's so good at universalizing stuff that we all feel. And this one, to me, feels a little like a sliver of the population who would immediately identify with this. So Charlie Brown doesn't want to be just good old Charlie Brown.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: What do you think Charlie Brown wants to be that she is saying, you'll never be by saying this?
Jimmy: He wants to be great at something. You know, he wants to be a great pitcher. Right. He always is imagining himself as the hero. Even if he's in a game he's on third base, he could win. All he has to do is just stay there and hope the next person gets a hit. But he has to put the pressure on himself to steal home. So he's the hero. Not just that his team wins that he's the hero. And all he. As she's saying, all you'll ever be is, like, good. Which is a wonderful thing to be. And if everybody was that, we'd be in fine shape. But, if you have dreams of glory, of greatness. Yeah.
Harold: Which Schulz obviously did. Yeah, he, he was that kind of a guy. He was competitive. When I think of good old somebody, the, the first thing I think of is if you ever seen Lady and the Tramp, the, the animated film with the big bloodhound. My papy grandpappy's old reliable, you say? You know, I just think reliable.
Harold: That's somebody who's good. Or they're around, you can rely on them.
Jimmy: Yeah. Because you're going to use your good old can opener. Or I'm going to use.
Harold: They're not going to. Yeah. They're not going to surprise you, but they're going to be there when you need them.
Jimmy: Absolutely. yeah, always.
Harold: And, and the thing here that's interesting to me, which seems like this is Schulz talking to himself, is I don't know how many people would be that as insightful as Patty, is that that's the thing that's going to get Charlie Brown. Because it's kind of a surprise that that's the thing that's absolutely gonna got him.
Jimmy: Uh-huh.
Harold: But Schulz is speaking through both of the characters and it's like he's almost speaking to himself because it just doesn't seem like something Patty would home in on.
Jimmy: This feels like Unwanted Thoughts syndrome, or, you know, or Intrusive Thoughts syndrome. you know, where you could almost imagine this being a voice in Charlie Brown's head because it's such, like you say, it feels like it's so specific to someone and it's such an. When someone's making fun of you, they make fun of you. Your ears stick out, your hair is bad, you got bad breath or what? You know, whatever. just picking things about myself in the moment. That's where I'm feeling this afternoon. But you know, this is like about his innermost psyche.
Harold: Yeah. And it almost feels like it's not Patty, because I can't imagine Patty knowing what she's doing, but she knows she's doing something. It's just a weird strip, you know, it. It doesn't seem necessarily true to. I don't know. Michael, what do you think is this. This is this. You think Patty's got Charlie Brown's number and that's what we're seeing here? And she's just being incredibly harsh.
Michael: Well, the way. The question I would have is, would this work the same if it was Violet? This seems like more like a Violet strip, Right?
Liz: Why?
Michael: Because he's actually getting worked up. Patty doesn't seem like she's prone to this kind of anger. She's just getting really angry.
Liz: Well, I'm wondering about. I mean, we talk a lot about Lucy being, harsh, but doing things for someone's benefit. And you could sort of read this that she's saying it and saying it, with enthusiasm to push him to be. To live his dreams or something.
Harold: If it wasn't. And that's all you'll ever be.
Jimmy: three exclamation marks.
Harold: That seems to be kind of sealing his coffin there. I don't know. Well, I mean, it's weird. Yeah. But Patty is doing it in a strange way. Michael. If Violet did do it, I would read this differently. And actually I would be reading into Violet. Why? She would be saying it would have a different kind of power. And if Lucy said it, it would have even greater power because of what we know about them. Since Patty's kind of a cipher, kind of like Shermy here. It's all on Charlie Brown. We're just all focused on Charlie Brown, kind of scratching our heads.
Liz: and they're not sitting next to each other. They're just standing there. So, I mean, in the strips we've looked at, Violet has been sitting next to him. So that implies a conversation, but it's just different.
Harold: Yeah, yeah. If they were in the house together.
Harold: Or if they were seated on the sidewalk together, like the very first strip, then you'd assume there was some togetherness to start it here. You don't know. Yeah.
Liz: Interesting.
November 12th, 1955. They're hanging out in the living room now it's Violet and Charlie Brown. Charlie Brown's looking at a fishbowl. So this might. This is an unknown hidden Peanuts character, the fish. and Violet says, you're always moaning about nobody liking you. And she continues, well, good grief, Charlie Brown. Do you ever try to make somebody like you? Do you? Do you ever really try to be pleasant? Do you ever really try to be cheerful? And Charlie Brown, having made no reaction thus far, turns and says, you don't like me, do you?
Michael: Yeah, he's incredibly frustrating. That's why everyone's getting angry.
Jimmy: Yes.
Michael: You can get angry at someone not for doing anything wrong, but just being themselves. Stop being yourself.
Jimmy: Stop being yourself.
Liz: But that's a little powerful. His response, he's giving back a little bit.
Harold: How do you mean, Liz?
Liz: Well, his. You don't like me, do you? I mean, he isn't saying, you've crushed me. it's just an observation.
Harold: Yeah. And the fact that he's in a rut, you know, that's what she's griping about from panel one. And he just gives it back to her like she's kind of right. You know, he's not doing anything other than stuck in the mode of being concerned that nobody likes him. He has a chance to interact with her, and he doesn't.
Liz: Observing that her tone… He isn't necessarily taking it in.
Harold: Right. Yeah, he's stuck. It seems like given the first panel there, which does make you feel kind of bad, this is not a good place for him to be. And he's.
Liz: I'm not agreeing with that. I mean, he's. He's staring at fish. He isn't necessarily listening to her.
Harold: You mean it from the very beginning.
Liz: From. From the beginning of this strip.
Harold: Oh, that's interesting. So you think he's. Well, then why does he have that response at the end, Liz?
Liz: Like, because the words that she's using are enthusiastically negative. negative. But he isn't necessarily taking them to heart.
Jimmy: I understand that.
Harold: Well, that's for sure. Yeah. He's listening, but not listening.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: Okay.
Jimmy: I mean, there's. Yeah, it feels almost like there's a trauma response with Charlie Brown here where he is reacting emotionally to being attacked and criticized. Right. So he puts up his shield. Cause he's just feeling it. Right. And then when it's over goes, you don't like me. Because that's like the only. When he feels that way, that's his default response. You don't like me. When Maybe it has something to do with not liking you, maybe it doesn't. But when he gets put in that emotional m. And the reason I'm saying this is because I can imagine that being an emotional mode Charles Schulz found himself in and maybe not even 100% aware of it.
Liz: Well, and he's proving himself right by. I mean, he moans about nobody liking him. And she has proven it that you don't like me, do you?
Harold: Well, yeah, he's proved. Yeah. I mean, he's proving her right, too. That's what I think. So funny about it. It's like, yeah, he.
Jimmy: Because that's all he can ever do.
Liz: Well but, I'm right. I mean, there's something, like, powerful about it. Like, yep, I've been right all this time.
Jimmy: Oh, I see, that’s funny. I don't actually see it that way, but.
Harold: And here she's saying, I'm giving you a solution just to try something different. And he doesn't try something different. He goes right back into his rut.
Jimmy: Yeah.
March 9, 1956. Charlie Brown's sitting on an ottoman in I guess his living room or Patty's living room, talking to Patty. And he says, I wish I knew why people don't like me. I wish I knew the reasons. And Patty says, do you have a piece of paper? Charlie Brown says, I can get one. So now they're at the table. Charlie Brown has the paper and pencil, and Patty is talking to him, saying, all right, now divide the paper into 10 columns, then put numbers down the left side from 1 to 100. This is shocked Charlie Brown. And Patty continues, maybe you'd better call this first sheet A, in case we run out of room and have to use more paper. Charlie Brown just sighs,
Michael: No, I see this as a Lucy strip.
Liz: Yeah, it really is.
Michael: Yeah.
Harold: only Lucy trying to help.
Liz: Yeah.
Harold: Yeah. And you don't see anger.
Liz: And I have lots of information for you.
Harold: Yeah. Patty doesn't have like, she's, she's not angry, she's just matter of fact about it. She's got a system going. Yeah, that's. And it's so funny that he says, I wish I knew why people didn't like me. Any of the reasons. And we just heard from Violet some of the reasons why he might not be liked. So, he's not. He's not. It's not coming through. Anyone's giving him any of that. And here he's going to get a lot of. I don't know if it's constructive criticism. It'll be criticism.
Liz: Well, we don't know. It's just going to be. It's going to be reasons.
Harold: Reasons. Yeah. The whys, means you have to write small, too.
July 6, 1958. It's a Sunday, and Violet and Charlie Brown are walking down the street. And Violet says, my dad is taller than your dad. And then she continues, my dad has broader shoulders than your dad. My dad is better looking than your dad. Charlie Brown loses it, turns right at her and says, your dad. You're always talking about your dad. And now Charlie Brown is yelling, maybe my dad isn't, perfect, but I like him anyway. He's my dad and I like him. Violet says, you're screaming, Charlie Brown. She has her arms folded across her chest. And Charlie Brown says, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to scream. I was only trying to say that I like my dad for what he is. He's my dad and I like him. And Violet then says that's very commendable. Charlie Brown, you are to be congratulated on your loyalty. Charlie Brown says thank you. And then Violet says, however, my dad, Charlie Brown. Oh, good grief.
Michael: There's a whole bunch. I think Violet gave up on personally insulting Charlie Brown and started playing up her dad as being better in every way than.
Jimmy: Yeah, there's a lot of good bits that they get out of that,
Michael: but this one wraps things up nicely, I think.
Liz: But is it mean or is she just like self interested?
Jimmy: That's mean.
Harold: Well, I mean, she doesn't have to compare him to Charlie Brown's status.
Jimmy: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.
Harold: She, she could just be talking about Liz. Why do you think her focus is her dad and Charlie Brown's dad? Just because they're the two together and so she's comparing those or.
Liz: yeah.
Harold: What do you think's going on here?
Liz: I mean, she's bragging.
Liz: But it isn't necessarily putting him down. It's not necessarily cruel. I don't read it as obviously cruel.
Jimmy: I think it borders on psychotic. I really do. I think this is like crazy behavior. Yes.
Michael: Well. But, also in popular culture. There's something happened in popular culture which strikes me as really odd and manifests in a lot of popular pop songs where the girl or the guys being put down because they're poor.
Liz: Oh yeah.
Michael: Or they live on the wrong side of the tracks. To me that's. I think it's a. It's this barber thing that she wants to be in a higher class than he is.
Jimmy: Yeah. Charlie Brown's working class.
Michael: Yeah.
Liz: I think that you are putting meaning on it that isn't necessarily there.
Jimmy: Well, that's the whole podcast, Liz. I mean, if we don't.
Liz: You're right.
Harold: Yeah. I mean, what does motivate someone like Violet to. To compare her father favorably to the person she's with?
Michael: He's probably better educated, I would guess. Her father went to college and that's a professional of some kind.
Liz: And she might talk about her dad like this to everyone,
Jimmy: but no, she's not talking about her dad. She's talking about Charlie Brown's dad. That's the, that's what I think the part you're missing. She's not saying my dad has broad shoulders. She's saying my dad has broader shoulders than your dad. She's not saying my dad's tall. She's saying my dad's taller than your dad. And that's what makes it almost aggressive.
Harold: Okay, well, but, well, but this is the interesting part of it, let's say, you know, Liz's first view of this is how Violet is kind of, this is, I think the genius of this strip is you look at those first three panels, if you didn't read the text and you just reading the body language and the look on the face, it looks like they're having a nice little conversation coming from Violet. She's engaging with Charlie Brown, she's looking at him and she's smiling and she doesn't show any devilish look in her eye or anything. It's just, she's just talking on a walk with Charlie Brown. And so when he starts to yell, she crosses her arms and looks at him kind of haughtily and saying, you're screaming, Charlie Brown. You're the one out of line.
Harold: Which, you know, I think is we've been there before, right? When you had a conversation with somebody and the other person, other person seems totally out of line and yet they think you're out of line. And that's a weird feeling. And that's the feeling I get when I read this strip. And it's got some edge to it because of that.
Jimmy: Oh yeah, No, I think it's really unbelievably, richly written. The fact that Charlie Brown backs off instantly. when he honestly has every right, even if not just for what she's saying today, for, for the last thousand days of nonsense he's been getting from these people, he has every right to be annoyed and be angry about it.
Harold: yeah, and I'm, and I'm happy to see Charlie Brown stand up for his father, you know?
Jimmy: Yeah, right, well, and that's the other thing because, because he doesn't stand up
Harold: for a lot, sometimes he stands up for his dad. Yeah, you gotta love that. Love that.
Jimmy: But then as soon as she switches tactic and goes into mom mode.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: Arms crossed, calmly saying, you're screaming now he's backed off. 100% nebbish. I'm sure. Schulz, I think, really understood his own psychology and wrung lots of humor out of it.
Liz: Yes.
Liz: Yes.
Harold: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's lots of Schulz in this and it is extremely rich. And the mean girls thing could be just, a repetitive one dimensional idea. And that was Schulz. It, there's a lot of layers to this. And it's interesting that as rich as this is, it disappears in the strip. Can you imagine other cartoonists, once they, they landed on this kind of dynamic, that they wouldn't be milking it for the rest of the years it would be at the top of their list of things to go to. And he just, he moves away to something even more, nuanced with Lucy.
Jimmy: And it's that level of just firing on all cylinders, being able to, you know, put Rain out as a B side because it doesn't matter because you have, you know what I mean? I was like, yeah, whatever, there'll be another one next week. It's crazy to watch someone be able to work at that level, you know, but we got to do it and we get to do this podcast because you guys continue to listen. So thank you so much for doing that.
Harold: Yes, thank you.
Jimmy: If you want to help out in other ways, like keep the conversation going, go over to unpackingpeanuts.com, sign up for the great Peanuts reread. You'll just get one email a month. We're not going to spam you or anything like that, but I'll let you know what's coming up. You can also, if you want to just talk to us. You have a question or a comment about the show, you can email us. We're unpackingpeanutsmail.com. you can also go ahead and
Liz: Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.
Jimmy: Yeah, leave us a review. We got like 71 reviews. We need to have like 100 reviews. I would like, I would like triple digit reviews, please. I've read 3,000 comic strips for you, so good old five star, review. That would be great. If you want to call us. 717-219-4162 unpackingpeanuts@gmail.com if you want to email us and if you want to follow us on social media, we are, unpackpeanuts on Instagram and Threads and unpackingpeanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. So for the gang, this is Jimmy saying, be of good cheer.
MH&L: Yes, yes, be of good cheer.
VO: Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner. Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark. For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads. Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.
Harold: Little orphan angst.