Pumpkin Spice 1 - Do Falling Leaves Make You Feel Sad?
Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. It's that time of year again. It's getting dark early. There's a crisp chill in the air. I know it's depressing, but it. But it means it's time for autumn and pumpkin spice Peanuts.
And I am your host for the proceedings. My name is Jimmy Gownley, and you can order my two new books, Amelia Rules Party out of Bounds and in the Real Dark Night, Volume 1 over at Gville Comics on Substack.
And joining me, as always, are my pals, co hosts and fellow cartoonists. He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People, as well as for this very podcast. He's the co creator of the original comic book price guide, the original editor for Amelia Rules, and the creator of such great strips as Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells and Tangled River. It's Michael Cohen.
Michael: Say hey.
Jimmy: And he's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former vice president of Archie Comics and the creator of the Instagram sensation's Sweetest Beasts. It's Harold Buchholz.
Harold: Hello
Jimmy: And making sure everything runs smooth and keeping us out of trouble, it's producer and editor Liz Sumner.
Liz: Howdy.
Jimmy: Well, guys, we are going to look at some autumn in the Peanuts verse. It's a very. A very important time in the Peanuts world. What do you guys. Are you fans of autumn? Liz doesn't sound like she is with the. With the tears at the beginning. What do you guys think?
Michael: I hate summer. Summer was so awful. I'm thrilled that it's. It's.
Jimmy: It's because of the heat.
Michael: Yeah, it's. I'm thrilled I can actually go outside.
Jimmy: Yeah, we just had a change. Like. Yeah, it was. It was crazy. It was boiling hot the day before yesterday, and then yesterday it was fall. It just happened like that. It was nice and cool and breezy. Very nice.
Harold: Yeah. If I had to rank them, I'd go, what? Spring, then fall, then summer, then winter.
Jimmy: How about you, Liz?
Liz: I. Even though the weather is gorgeous and the crisp days, I just. I don't like the darkness, and I just don't like everything dying. It is not my favorite time of year.
Harold: Understandable.
Jimmy: Yep. I like it. I overall like it. The. Oh, I'm. I love the accoutrements that go along with it. I do love the colors of the leaves, especially in Pennsylvania, it's beautiful. But heading into those long, cold nights, that's what really. Do not like that. Do not like that.
Harold: Any season that allows you to say accoutrements.
Jimmy: That's true. But for sure, I like the rituals. Now, do you guys have a favorite fall ritual? Anything you like? Is it, you know, the, the, the apple ciders coming out or pumpkin.
Liz: The leaves.
Michael: I like crunching leaves.
Liz: Oh, yeah, yeah. Walking through a pile of leaves….
Jimmy: Yeah, that's good.
Harold: I like seeing the foliage, you know, driving out to places where, you know, know we're in New York. See, there's so many places in Pennsylvania and surrounding states that are just so beautiful. Hudson River Valley.
Jimmy: Oh, God. Yeah.
Harold: So pretty.
Liz: Yeah.
Jimmy: Absolutely beautiful. Yep. I'm going to go with the, I'm going to go with the various, treats you can get. I love apple cider. Oh, you know what? I love an apple cider donut.
Harold: Ever have one of those? I knew that was coming.
Jimmy: So good.
Liz: Do they have those only in the autumn or all year round,
Jimmy: as far as I kno.-- I'm sure you could get some preservative-laced, you know, version anytime. But you know, at local bakeries and stuff, we only have them in the autumn.
Harold: Yeah, well, of course they, they cheat so, you know, they start popping up late summer.
Jimmy: Oh, yeah.
Harold: Well, They're already available. You can, you can get yourself some apple cider donuts. But it is kind of special. Yeah, they. It's not like a year round thing, which is, which is nice, you know, it's nice to have something that just pops up once a year.
Jimmy: Yeah. And then the other thing. Sorry, go ahead.
Liz: I just was going to say that I don't know whether the whole pumpkin spice thing is a universal thing. I've never seen anybody in Italy offer a pumpkin spice flavored something or other.
Jimmy: It's middle class white ladies in America, for the most part.
Harold: Yeah.
Harold: I'm not a huge fan of pumpkin and things, and so there's just a lot more to tiptoe around this time.
Liz: I do like cinnamon.
Harold: It winds up in everything.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: Yeah. Oh, what about pumpkin pie?
Harold: Oh, I love a good pumpkin pie.
Liz: That doesn't translate over here. People think it's absolutely bizarre.
Jimmy: Well, tell them we feel the same way about the Renaissance.
Michael: Pumpkin pizza is pretty good though.
Liz: Oh, they make a lovely pumpkin ravioli.
Jimmy: Oh, yeah, I've had some ravioli. That is really good. Boy, this is just turning into a food episode. You know what this is? Do you know what I like now, though, as an adult? The one thing that really bummed me out about fall as a kid was, of course, back to school.
Liz: Yeah.
Jimmy: and now I have no. Nobody in my life that's even going back to school. So there's not even a vestige of that remaining.
Harold: That did hang heavy over. Over fall, for sure. No question. I think that would have bumped summer up quite a bit in my 4 rankings. Yeah.
Liz: I feel sorry for kids who have to go back to school on, like, the middle of August.
Jimmy: It's earlier and earlier.
Michael: Yeah.
Liz: That's just wrong.
Jimmy: I called a friend of mine who's a teacher, and I said, hey, let's get out, go out for lunch before you go back to school. And he was like, all right, well, it has to be in the next two days.
Harold: Like, what?
Jimmy: It was, like, August 15th. I was like, are you kidding me?
Liz: Wow.
Harold: Yeah. That's nuts.
Jimmy: Well, you know, Schulz really made the most of the, the autumn season, and he really made the most of just the calendar in general. What do you guys think about that? Just as kind of this kind of metronome that Schulz had, you know, in the background, and. And It seemed more so than other strips. You really felt the passing of the seasons in Peanuts, and it seemed like it was something that really inspired him. What do you guys think about that?
Harold: Well, you think about Peanuts and how much of it is outdoors. Yeah, it's. It's way more than most strips, Right?
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: I mean, Snoopy has a lot to do with that.
Harold: Cause Snoopy lives outdoors, but that means that you're gonna have the seasons floating around virtually every strip. And the fact that he grew up in, you know, Minneapolis St. Paul area, his memory of childhood is obviously incredibly strong. And his memory of that growing up in that area seems to be incredibly strong, too, because, I mean, think of the weather he had starting in, what, the late 50s?
Michael: Yeah.
Harold: You know, in California, it was. Those seasons were not really very there, I would guess. I mean, a little. A little bit. You know, you're. You're Northern California.
Jimmy: Yeah. But nothing compared to Minnesota.
Harold: No. No. And it's just cool that that memory is strong for him. And, you, know, I don't. It's interesting to think. Did Schulz think where these kids are? Did he say, hey, I started in this area, therefore they stayed back even though I moved? Or does he even think about it?
Harold: I don't know.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: And sure. Michael, growing up in California, what was your thoughts about, seeing all the seasonal stuff there?
Michael: Well, there were no seasons yeah, but
Jimmy: I mean, seeing it in Peanuts when you didn't have seasons, it was kind of exotic. Was it?
Michael: Well, I didn't. I mean, I grew up in New York, but I didn't have any memories of that. But I know my family, hated the winters and essentially moved to LA to get away from that, so. Yeah, they moved to a place where essentially there are no seasons. You go to the beach in December, I mean,
Jimmy: which has its own appeal, certainly.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah. So, to me, it was like a very, very un LA type thing to think about, because I didn't even have a real autumn until I moved up to the Pacific Northwest. That was my first.
Jimmy: Wow. And what. How old were you then?
Michael: 22, 23.
Harold: So.
Jimmy: All right, so here's what we did, guys. I went through and I picked out a bunch of strips, and I sent them to the guys, and then they didn't get them, and there was no evidence that I did that. So we don't know what happened there. We went into some sort of wormhole. Then I did it again. So we're gonna pick. We're gonna read those strips to give you a little. A little taste of autumn and Peanuts Land. And the other. The other thing I'm very excited about, because I could have done a whole episode just about. These are the leaf strips, which we know is a, longtime favorite of Michael's. These are the single falling leaf strips, and we're going to intersperse like a, dusting of, nutmeg across the top of your latte. We are going to sprinkle, those throughout.
Liz: Sounds good.
Jimmy: Michael, do you want to talk about those at all? The leaf strips?
Michael: They're very poetic and very simple. That's probably the simplest recurring strip that Schulz did.
Michael: Yeah.
Michael: And he did lots of them. I mean, I couldn't do one if I had 50 years. And they're not all funny. I don't think he's going so much for the big yucks. He's going for the mood.
Jimmy: Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. All right, well, we're going to get into these strips, so if you want to follow along with us, there's a couple things you got to do. I always say that there's actually one thing you got to do. You got to go over to unpacking peanuts.com, sign up for the great Peanuts reread. That would get you one email a month and let you know what strips we're going to be covering so you could read along with this. All Right. You go do that. And then we will be right here with--
October 8, 1970. Linus is out for a little walk on a lovely day, and he says to himself, I like a walk on a brisk fall day. And then the next panel, we see him enjoying his walk, kind of looking at the leaves that have all fallen on the ground. And then we see him in his house, and he says, afterward, it's fun to come home and have a cup of hot chocolate. And then we see him in the last panel, propped up on two pillows in front of the tv, and he says, and sit in front of a warm tv.
Michael: Which is true. And if you're sitting that close, it actually is warm.
Liz: Radiation.
Harold: Yeah. The kids these days, they don't know how hot TVs could have gotten. That's right.
Jimmy: That was also if, you weren't supposed to have the TV on for whatever reason and you turned it off real quick and your parents came in your room, all they would do is put their hand on the TV and they would know.
Harold: Yeah. You were dead to rights.
Jimmy: That's right.
Liz: Or the tube dot would still be in the center.
Jimmy: That's right. Oh, boy.
Liz: I have a question.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Liz: Are there two words afterward and afterwards? do they have different meanings or.
Jimmy: No, it's not afterwards. Just one word, because after ward W A R D.
Liz: But I thought it had an S at the end.
Michael: That's English for you. It's no rules.
Jimmy: I'm stunned. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. I don't know.
Harold: Just stump the band.
Michael: Yep.
Jimmy: Let's figure that out.
Michael: They're both words. It's just like. I bet there must be some other words like that.
Liz: Google says that they're both correct and mean exactly the same thing.
Jimmy: I bet afterward is the original correct one. And afterward words. Now I can't even say it like it's a real word. It's becoming all meaning to me.
Harold: Yeah.
Harold: And, then Schulz goes for the shorter version. I think that Poetic Schulz, he's going to make it shorter if he can.
Harold: Right.
Jimmy: The amazing thing to me is that he looks at the ellipse and goes, that's just too extravagant. We do not need a third dot. And he goes all in on that. I noticed something rereading Cerebus early, Cerebus, which I haven't done in a long time, but I've seen these comics thousands of times. He doesn't use periods. Like, sometimes he just. If there's just one word, one sentence in a word balloon, he just won't use a period. Well, neither does Schulz!
Michael: Well, there's no period in the last panel.
Liz: Yeah.
Harold: And what does that do? What's the effect of that when you read it?
Jimmy: I don't know. It's given me an existential crisis, though, that. Do I have to go back in all my comics and take out the periods?
Harold: I mean, I do it sometimes in my strips as well. I know it's because I saw it in Peanuts. That's. That's an absolute fact. And I guess somehow, if there's no period, it somehow makes me linger or makes me want to linger a little bit.
Michael: Yeah. More tea?
Harold: The thought just kind of hangs there. Does that make any sense?
Liz: But the ellipse doesn't.
Harold: Huh?
Liz: Huh?
Harold: Well, the ellipse.
Jimmy: The ellipse would be more like what Michael did. Right. Like it extends it.
Harold: That's what means to be continued.
Jimmy: Right.
Harold: And that you're going to. You're going to hear more of the thought, which. Which makes me anticipate. But if it's just floating there without a period, I just. I really like it. It's. It's weird. It's just a period. It's just a dot.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: But I really do like it. I just feel like, I'm hanging in that moment with that character, and it's. Not many people do it, and some people say, well, it's just wrong. But I. I totally feel it. Maybe I'm, making it all up. But then maybe we've been making up the last four years.
Jimmy: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I don't think it is so much making it up as just noticing things that you would not notice unless you were doing a show about it.
Harold: Yeah. I don't quite understand the two dot ellipse.
Jimmy: No.
Harold: that is fascinating. And that does feel so Midwestern.
Jimmy: Well, and it's just such a flex, too. Like, I'm going to do this all the time, and it's wrong, and you're not going to change it at all.
Harold: I'm going to recreate the English language.
Jimmy: Exactly. Yes, absolutely.
Harold: It's great. I love it. Love it, love it.
October 31, 1959. Lucy is making a jack o' lantern, and she is reaching inside the pumpkin and pulling out all the pumpkin guts and pumpkin seeds. And Linus is watching this. And in the second panel, as she dumps up, dumps out a giant handful of pumpkin guts, Linus just looks completely, disgusted and shocked. It's the scream. That's what it looks like. And then he walks away looking completely agonized. In an existential crisis. And Lucy yells out after him, well, what's the matter with you? And Linus turns around and says, you didn't tell me you were going to kill it.
Jimmy: Wow, that's a classic. Animated. In the Great Pumpkin Special
Harold: he sure makes them look disgusting, too.
Jimmy: In the second panel, it is pretty disgusting. Reaching into a pumpkin and pulling out pumpkin.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: Now, did you guys like making Jack O' lanterns?
Michael: I never made a Jack o' lantern.
Harold: Really?
Liz: I did, and I have the scar to prove it.
Harold: Oh no
Jimmy: Whadya do?
Liz: I have a giant scar across my left index finger that. Because. I don't know. I was 8 years old and I had a big knife, but I will always remember.
Harold: Is that going to be the last thing? And in this episode, I was eight years old and I had a big knife.
Liz: Good idea. But, we also have to give a shout out to Keene, New Hampshire, and their pumpkin festival, where they had. They broke the record many years in a row of having the most lit Jack o' Lanterns in one place. I think it was like 28,000 something
Harold: like that in Keene, New Hampshire.
Liz: Wow. Yeah. I don't know whether they're still doing it or not, but it was wonderful.
Jimmy: Keene's a great little town.
Harold: Yeah. I love Keene. The drawings of Linus. He's got two parentheses on either side of his eyes, and he just. Those last two panels, I would say that's what drawing Linus looks like. If you're not Charles Schulz drawing it and you're trying to draw Linus, it just seems a little bit strange to my eye.
Jimmy: because of the two parentheses.
Harold: Yeah. The way it's drawn, it makes me think of the late 50s comic books that someone else was drawing for him. Doesn't look like Schulz to me. It's weird.
Jimmy: That's Michael's line. That's not Schulz. Speaking of Michael, how about we go on over and check out one of Michael's leaf strips?
October 8, 1966. Lucy is throwing a pebble into a little puddle of water, and we see the sound effect, Ker splash. Charlie Brown watches this. Then Charlie Brown, later, at a different location, sees Linus jumping into a giant pile of leaves. And the sound effect as Linus lands is ker leaf. And then Charlie Brown looks out at us and says, Ker leaf?
Jimmy: I don't remember that at all.
Michael: Well, this is totally postmodern.
Jimmy: Totally.
Michael: This. This cannot happen in reality in any way. It's a reflection of. I mean, what would happen if you could see the sound effects.
Liz: Well, wouldn't it be Ker Rustlel rather than ker Leaf?
Michael: Well, it doesn't matter what it is.
Jimmy: I love Kurt Russell, in some of his earlier movies. Kurt Russell.
Liz: Yeah. When he worked for Disney.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: Oh, my God. Yeah. When he was a kid, he was
Harold: going to be a star
Michael: anyway. What happens when basically sound effects are visible in reality? Yeah, It's a commentary on comic book sound effects.
Jimmy: I love it. I think it's really, really funny. And I know we talked about this before, but I know that they used to do that and, like, ninja high school, where they would have very literal sound effects that I always found very funny.
Harold: Yeah. I like it that he's playing with the sound effects and he's not afraid to be a little surreal.
Jimmy: I have to say, though, I was a little confused by that first panel.
Liz: Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean.
Jimmy: You, know, you have to really like, what is she doing? Why is that? Because it's not even something that they normally do in Peanuts is like, throw rocks and puddles. And you also don't really throw rocks
Harold: in puddles
Jimmy: because it's a puddle.
Michael: But, the curb before a word that describes the sound. I'm not that familiar with. I know the kaboom.
Jimmy: Kerwomp.
Michael: I mean, you just made that up.
Jimmy: No, Kerwomp. Google it. That goes back to the Ottoman Empire. Kawam
Michael: Kerplunk.
Liz: Oh, yeah, Kerplunk.
Michael: Kerplunk.
Michael: There you go.
Harold: That was when you threw a piece of Turkish taffy into a pond.
Jimmy: Yeah. You know, everyone knows kerplunk.
Michael: So the Ker is not used that often. So to use it in ker leaf is very. It's just a very odd strip.
Harold: Yeah. I actually love that first panel and that he puts the sound effect in the white space between.
Jimmy: So cool.
Harold: Throwing the pebble in that little arc and then dropping into the water. It's just beautifully drawn.
Jimmy: Yeah. Figuring out where to put things like display lettering for word balloons and stuff is hard, especially because he has that unbelievably unnecessary black box up there on the top left of those panels. It is still shocking to me that he let that go for as long as he did.
Harold: Right. But to Liz's point, you know, if it's ker splash, the splash is obviously, what, an onomatopoeia or whatever. But kerleaf is breaking the rules, so it's already strange. Of course. Charlie Brown
Liz: Ker pebble.
Harold: It's almost like Charlie Brown's looking at Charles Schulz going, hey, ker leaf?.
Jimmy: That's right.
Liz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jimmy: So it's like a commentary on the fact that the lettering as we're reading it is. Is an onomatopoeia in both instances. And Charlie Brown somehow heard kerleaf and had to look out at the creator of the universe and go, kerleaf?
Michael: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Harold: Yeah.
Michael: Schulz knew he was. This was in his sketchbook, and he was pushing it a little too far to get a joke.
Harold: Yeah, well, he knows he's getting silly, right?
Jimmy: Yeah. Right.
Harold: I love it when he gives himself the permission to just go a little bit further with the silliness.
Liz: And, jumping into piles of leaves was awfully fun. But doesn't it look like Linus is going to miss?
Jimmy: Well, his butt's definitely going to hit the short end of that pile. Yeah. All right. Anyway, let's. Let's check in on Patty, Peppermint Patty Patty and Marcie, see what they're doing.
October 2, 1983. It's a Sunday, and Marcie is looking at a football, and she says, what am I supposed to do with this? And we see she's playing with Peppermint Patty Patty, who says to her, why do I have to explain everything? Then the strip really starts in the second tier, and Marcie goes, I hate football, sir. And Peppermint Patty walks downfield and says, just throw the ball to me, Marcie, when I get down the field. And Peppermint Patty's like three feet away. And Marcie rears back and fires a perfect tight spiral to the back of Peppermint Patty's head. Bonk. And then it bounces back, and Marcie catches the football. And a little smile appears on Marcie's face, and she says, did you see that, sir? I threw the ball and it came right back to me. Patty has stars over her head, and she says, marcy, I told you to wait till I got down the field. but Marcie doesn't. Peppermint Patty turns bonk once again, and it bounces right back to Marcie, who's delighted. And she says, it did it again, sir. Did you see that? I threw the ball and it came right back to me. Peppermint Patty is, like, dazed by this. And then Marcie says, I changed my mind, sir. This game is a lot of fun. To which Peppermint Patty says, I can't stand it.
Liz: That's wonderful.
Jimmy: So cute.
Michael: Those two bonk panels are very, very similar. And I. At first I thought, did he actually do, like, a photocopy? No, no. There's very minor Differences.
Jimmy: But it's crazy. Like, when you look at the hair on Peppermint Patty, like, it's drawn exactly the same way on the front of her head. You know, three on the bottom of the little poof, one on the top of the big poof.
Liz: She has sort of a tonset on the. The first one that, A bald spot.
Jimmy: Yes. That's gonna look that way.
Harold: I'm just happy that Marcie's found a sport she likes.
Jimmy: Oh, my gosh. I love their friendship. Great looking Strip. footballs are kind of hard to draw because you gotta make them symmetrical,
Harold: and sometimes they're not. Like, when it's bouncing back to Marcie the second time, it seems slightly wonky. Of course, it, did get Peppermint Patty's head, so. So I want to ask you. This is kind of not necessarily a fall thing. The last panel, the classic kind of squiggly smile, if you guys know what I mean. The class. That squiggly line. What is that? And what does it. How do you read it? And why don't more people do it? I know you do it, Jimmy.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: I think it's a really powerful thing, and it's somehow, to me, this strangely, endearing or makes you connect to the character because it's almost like their, Their emotion is mixed.
Jimmy: Yes.
Harold: Does this make sense?
Jimmy: Yeah, it's like it's smiling through embarrassment or smiling through a facade of some
Harold: sort, or overcoming something to get to the smile.
Jimmy: Cause you're acknowledging in some way the negative part of it, the embarrassment, and then you,
Jimmy: But you're smiling through it.
Harold: Like you say, it really works.
Liz: It also has a little bit of movement in it. Like her lips are wiggling.
Jimmy: Yeah. right, right. Almost like the trembling lip.
Michael: Look.
Jimmy: That's true, too. Yeah.
Harold: it's funny. When I'm drawing, sometimes I think about using it, and for some strange reason, because it's so uniquely Schulz, I feel weird about it.
Jimmy: No, you gotta just steal it. that. That's your problem as you think.
Harold: That's always been my problem.
Jimmy: Yeah, I. Apparently. Isaac Asimov. Or not. I'm sorry, Arthur C. Clark.
Harold: Did he use the squiggly line?
Jimmy: Yeah, he was big into squiggly. Now, Arthur C. Clarke used to have a sign above his typewriter that said, don't think,
Harold: and you're supposed to. That explains some of his novels.
Jimmy: Just be like. Oh, just be living at. You know, living through the. Through the work and, you know, experiencing it. And then you could think about it later.
October 26, 1973, Charlie Brown and Lucy are out for a walk. And Charlie Brown says, do falling leaves make you feel sad? And Lucy says, absolutely not. If they want to fall, I say let them fall. And they're standing among trees as leaves are falling. And Lucy says, in fact, falling leaves are a good sign. And they continue to walk on. And she says it's when you see them jumping back onto the trees that you're in trouble.
Liz: Does that sound in character?
Michael: I don't quite understand this. This is beyond my. This is too deep for me.
Jimmy: Well, all she's saying is that there's nothing to be sad about. This is the natural order of things. If suddenly the leaves were going back on the tree, then worry about it.
Liz: Yeah, but that, that sounds sort of like a punchline that. I don't quite see Lucy saying that.
Jimmy: Well, you're sure you did. She just said it right there.
Liz: Oh, okay. You're absolutely right. Thank you, Jimmy.
Michael: We have, right there, we have proof that she said it.
Harold: She said it.
Michael: Yeah.
Harold: Well, Lucy does sometimes dislike things that are out of the ordinary. Right. Mean like adding birds on the head. So in that way it makes me feel like that's something I would expect Lucy to say.
Jimmy: And, and the other thing is that the key is also the second panel. Do falling over the first panel. Do falling leaves make you feel sad? Lucy's not gonna give the leaves that power. Absolutely not. If they wanna fall, I say let em fall. Like it's.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: That is normal and orderly. So she is okay with it. She would only be upset if things became abnormal and unorderly. Which is very Lucy, I think.
Harold: Yeah, I kind of. I feel the same way. Jimmy. I'm looking at that second panel that you just quoted and this is something that interests me with the falling leaves. Why does he show the leaf and then motion lines beneath it rather than above it would do it the other way. Most of them would do it the other way around.
Jimmy: They would, but that would indicate that it's heavy and it's falling faster. If you put it beneath it, that's indicating the wind that's slightly holding it up.
Harold: Yeah.
Jimmy: or the air that's slightly holding it up.
Harold: Okay, well that's interesting because, you know, it looks by normal usual cartoon rules that it's rising.
Harold: Right.
Harold: Because normally you see the line. It's like the motion blur of it going up.
Jimmy: Well, I would think if it was a line going straight up, it would be going up. That doesn't indicate going up. To me drawing the thing, the lines as they are.
Harold: but you're suggesting there's a buoyancy to that leaf that might. It's not entirely just falling like a rock.
Liz: And it's aided by the language, too. I mean, the words are saying fall, so.
Harold: So you're thinking, right, But, I mean, you'll see it in the strips that Michael picked as well. He did use sometimes the dotted line showing it fall, and then underneath it, he would have those little motion lines. But he's kind of breaking the rules of what most cartoonists would do. I don't have anything against it. I'm just noting that it's not the normal vocabulary, I think, anyway, I think that segues into.
Michael: There's two leaf strips that I think fit in nicely with that one.
Jimmy: All right.
October 7, 1963. Snoopy is standing at the base of a tree, watching some leaves flutter down. And Lucy comes up and says, anyone who would sit and watch leaves fall off a tree must be pretty stupid. Snewpee watches as she walks away and then turns around and looks at the leaves and says, I'm happy.
Then October 9, 1963. Snoopy sits. He watches a leaf fall. It lands in the ground. Snoopy looks at the leaf on the ground. Then he walks back to his house and says, I'm going to have to stop watching those leaves fall. I get so depressed, I can't sleep nights.
Michael: Now, did Schulz forget what he wrote two days before, or did Snoopy undergo a total transformation in two days?
Jimmy: Yeah, I think it's too much of a good thing.
Harold: Well, you skipped the in between strip, which maybe helps explain it.
Jimmy: Then let's look at--
October 8th. Snoopy watches another leaf fall. Oh, yeah. This is what explains Snoopy watches another leaf fall. It lands on the ground. And then Snoopy cocks his head over, and we see him listening intently with his long beagle ear. And then he says, in the last panel, it sighed, looking very depressed.
Michael: Oh, he realized they were unhappy leaves.
Jimmy: This is the end. That was the. Yeah.
Michael: Wow. Okay, Schulz, I apologize for questioning you.
Jimmy: And that's a perfect place to take a break, come back on the other side, and we'll talk about more fall stuff and whether we should be depressed or happy at this time of year.
BREAK
Harold: Jimmy, I just wanted to congratulate you again for being nominated not only by the Harvey Awards, but the Eisner Awards, two of the most prestigious comics awards for your in the real Dark Knight graphic novel. This work is worth checking out. So if anybody has not bothered to go to Jimmy's Substack, by all means, see what this is all about. It's a remarkable work that is in progress. But the first book is out and available, right?
Jimmy: Yeah. Yep. You can order it now directly through the substack, but if you can't afford it, they're beautiful. Hardcover, eight and a half by 11 volumes. But if you can't afford that, you can read it for free. And it's all about fighting depression with creativity in comic books. It's a funny book about being seriously depressed. So thank you.
Harold: Yes, absolutely. Check it out.
Jimmy: All right, everybody, we're back. Hey, Liz. I'm, hanging out in the mailbox. Do we got anything?
Liz: We do. We got a whole bunch. A friend of the show, Debbie Perry, wrote and said. Just wanted to drop a note to say that I enjoyed the CC Beck episode and the Speaking in Pictures episode. I, like how both episodes expand the scope of the podcast and give people new perspectives from which to look at Schulz's work. I wonder if you've ever thought about talking about some of Schulz's work before. And outside of Peanuts, like Lil folks and It's Only a Game, some of his work might be harder to come across, like his Saturday Evening Post comics, Church of God cartoons, and a few other non Peanuts books he illustrated. And also Debbie send us one of her wonderful sketches. What do you think?
Jimmy: Yeah, you know, it's tough, I think, in some ways, because most of the stuff isn't comic strips. They're gag cartoons. And like, I do have the Young Pillars, which are the, the Church of God cartoons, and they're only okay. But I think it would be interesting to do, just for nothing else to, you know, compare them to what he did within Peanuts. That could certainly be an interesting thing. And I love the idea of just how she said, you know, that those two episodes expanded the scope of it. I mean, I think that's exciting because I think one thing, the cool things about what we've been able to do with this podcast is as it goes on, we touch on so many other things other than just what's going on with the characters in the strip, you know, so anything that does that, that brings new perspectives, and I'm always voting for giving it a shot. What the heck.
Harold: Yeah, I think it's fascinating to see, particularly the ones that were in the developmental period, what he did for Saturday Evening Post and then also did for the newspaper locally and leading into doing the, strip that's interesting to see how he develops as a writer and as an artist, and then what? I think it's also fascinating that he was doing Young Pillars on top of Peanuts, kind of in his prime years of Peanuts. So that's interesting, too, because it's got a different vibe and a different flavor. and I like a lot of the Young Pillars ones. They're so buttoned up Midwestern with the teen characters. They're generally super stoic, but, yeah, some of them are hilarious.
Liz: And we also heard from regular listener Barbara Castleton, who writes, when I saw the strips from the Artists Honor Charles Schulz episode, I sighed. There is a whole world and dozens of characterizations that encompass the Peanuts universe. It's all part of my past, but also part of my mindset. Peanuts offered several generations a safe haven for laughs, tears, and all the feelings in between. I miss Peanuts and Barack Obama in equal measure. Siga.
Jimmy: It's amazing.
Harold: Yeah, thanks for the laughs, Barack.
Jimmy: Hey, so we mourn this, like, loss of, like, the monoculture, which, by the way, I think is basically a white person invention in their own mind. But we have something, we have this kind of permanent culture in that Peanuts never went away. Like, there was a time when things ended and then they went away and you never saw them again. Like, just as simple, you know, Crockett Johnson, who was a famous children's book author with Harold and the Purple Crayon and a famous, you know, gallery painter as well. But his comic strip Barnaby was impossible to find for decades. But now, one of the good things is that those things that we love and that become part of us, we can carry them through forever.
Harold: yeah.
Harold: I mean, one of the nice things about the Internet, which we're often.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: Hard on, is, is that there is truth to the Cream Rises concept. If there really is something universally accepted as outstanding, it's going to be around. And Peanuts. I mean, you could say Peanuts dipped for a while right after it went away. Yeah, it was still there and never went away. Obviously. There was greeting cards and all sorts of things, but it does seem like it's back stronger than it has, maybe even since the, you know, right around the time he was finishing up the strip. Does it. Does it feel that way to you guys?
Jimmy: Oh, I 100%.
Harold: It's just more present. And I'm constantly taking photos when I go to a pop culture place or whatever, and Peanuts is very well represented. And this is, you know, this is not the, I mean, I take the photos at the Walmarts and the Cracker Barrels, but also what you might call the trendier places that are mostly, Asian, you know, goods, because there's. They're. They're importing Peanus stuff from Japan, and
Jimmy: those items are like, crazy high quality, really, really nice.
Harold: Yeah, Japan's been famous for really nice miniatures of things and just not, not cheaply done. And so, yeah, it's just, it's, it's a little bit surprising, but also really cool to think that, you know, he. We're getting it back. It's kind of like how, you know, the British Invasion, you know, they're. Everyone's borrowing from everybody else and inspired for. By everyone else that there's now stuff in Asia that is Peanuts inspired that's coming back to the States. Yeah, that's cool.
Jimmy: Yeah, it is very, very cool. You know, and also all that stuff that he put, in you, in your heart and soul, is still there, and you carry that forward and make the world a better place.
Michael: Yep.
Harold: Yeah.
Liz: And this is kind of related. Comics historian and friend of the show Nat Gertler, wrote to us to set us straight about the origin of the tribute strips. And Patrick McDonnell clarified that as well in our last episode. But then Nat adds, as to whether any of the strips are a reaction to the placement of Peanuts reruns, I'd have to say probably not, because at the time that was assumed to be a very temporary thing to run for perhaps a year. Obviously, plans have changed since then.
Harold: Well, that's interesting. So I didn't realize that there had been a publicly announced decision that this was going to be finite. Obviously public reaction to it decided otherwise. But if anyone would know, it's Nat. I mean, Nat, you are the. The expert as far as I, I know about all things Peanuts on the historical side as well as, you know, just you seem to have every corner of Peanuts known and understood. And thank you for letting us know that.
Liz: And we also heard from Lynn Mancini, who writes thank you for discussing Mean Girls in not one but three episodes. I can absolutely second the fact that children in upstate New York, at least in the late 60s and early 70s, told you exactly what they thought of you. When I was growing up, the Mean Girl strips were among my favorites precisely because I could relate so much to Charlie Brown. It was comforting to know that I was not alone in being a spiritual scratching post. And since you offered to have us share our stories, I even related to the final strip you discussed. I learned, for example, to eat my lunch wandering in the halls. Once I was allowed to do so, because anywhere I tried to sit, the other kids would be just as vicious to me as the mean girls were to Charlie Brown in that last strip. Lunch was one of my least favorite times in the school day. Right down there with gym class. I can still hear the other students whiningly asking whether I really had to be on their team or sitting at their table. Couldn't I be somewhere else? And those were some of the more polite things they said to me. I strongly suspect that if I were to go to school now, I would be diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum and would be given social skills classes. But I went to school so long ago that if you weren't rocking back and forth and spinning plates, your label was not autistic, but simply weirdo.
Jimmy: Yes.
Harold: Wow. I'm so sorry you. Yeah, she went through that. But I, I. Yeah, the upstate New York thing, I guess I'm not alone.
Liz: she adds, my senior superlative was most unique. I chose to take that as a compliment, even though I know it absolutely was not intended as such.
Harold: Wow. Most unique. That's interesting. But the. Did I. Unless everybody got a superlative. I bet it. I bet it was. But I understand why you wouldn't think so. You know what I mean?
Jimmy: Yeah, I. Actually, you get to decide whether it is or isn't right. And I think you took the right. The right choice. You know, I used to do this as a, As a kid, and I would. It was especially when we were playing baseball or we were playing with football. No, this was any sport. Or basketball. I would intentionally pick the least athletic first. well, I did it because they would think it looked like I was flexing, like I doesn't matter who I have on my team. But in actuality, I just felt terrible and wanted the kid who got picked last to get picked first.
Harold: Well, that's sweet.
Liz: I want to take this opportunity to thank George Masters, who always picked me to be on his kickball team.
Harold: Oh.
Jimmy: Oh, George had a crush.
Liz: Yeah, I think he did. But, I really appreciated it.
Jimmy: That's great. Shout out to George.
Liz: And, Marcus Entrolezo writes again to tell us that it was his birthday. And for his birthday, he was sending us a present.
Jimmy: Happy birthday.
Liz: And he sent us another one of his wonderful strips from Butternuts.
Jimmy: Oh, fantastic. Awesome.
Liz: Oh, and he adds, I also want to thank Jimmy for reading my strip. That was so nice.
Jimmy: Oh, it was my pleasure. Absolutely. No problemo. You keep up the good work. Although I want a free Butternuts like merch subscription. When you hit it big time, I wanna get all the stuff, the oven mitts, the beach towels, the whole deal.
Harold: Yeah, well, and the strip Marcus sent in is the premise of the artist wishing he could draw like Charles Schulz and how it can't be hard. And then after terrible struggle and ink spilled everywhere, there's a darn cute drawing of Charlie Brown that I think actually is fantastic.
Liz: So I'll put it on our social media.
Jimmy: Absolutely.
Liz: And then we heard from Lee Pierre Fouillon, who sent us a photo from the San Francisco Chronicle. The issue published May 11, 2025. It was an article about a homeless encampment. And the photograph showed a number of tents. And next to them was a full size Snoopy doghouse with Snoopy on the top. It, was cardboard, but three dimensional. And I am so curious about the backstory of how that the doghouse was there in the homeless encampment.
Harold: And that homeless encampment is right up against some homes with an eight foot fence and a lot of ivy on the other side. But, yeah, that somebody would go to the trouble of making a really beautiful Snoopy, doghouse there is remarkable. I'd love to know the story of it, too.
Liz: Yeah, the article, was behind a paywall, but it seemed to be about the neighbors complaining about.
Harold: Not about Snoopy.
Jimmy: No, no, just the poor suffering human.
Harold: That's right.
Michael: That's
Harold: man.
Liz: And I want to give shout outs to Shayna Hickey, Spider Stomper, Rocky and Yipper and Leon Pedro. They left us wonderful remarks on YouTube and Spotify about specific episodes, but it would be really, next to impossible to recap what they were responding to. Because one of the wonderful things about doing this podcast is that people find us and then start doing their own reread. So these guys are reacting to 1956 part one, or 1961 part two.
Jimmy: And yeah, see, it's the permanent culture. Told you.
Liz: Yeah, exactly. So thank you all and we love hearing from you. And big thank you to super listener Susie Metzler, who sent us a whole bunch of mud pies.
Michael: Oh, boy.
Harold: Oh, fantastic.
Jimmy: Thank you.
Harold: We appreciate that.
Liz: So that's it for the mail. Anything in the hotline?
Jimmy: Yep, we got a couple calls. This one's from good old Andrew Goodell, and he says,
VM” hey, guys, this is Andrew Goodell calling. A big fan of the show. I listen to every episode and just, wondering, it's not about the Peanuts at all, but I'm just wondering about Liz, and Mike moving to Italy. I'm just thinking about going to, about moving overseas. And I was just wondering what the process was like and if it was tough at all. And, just wondering if you have any, advice. Okay, that's all. Be a good cheer and keep up the good work. Okay, bye, guys.
Liz: Oh, I love telling people our story. And so, Andrew, email us at, ah, Unpacking Peanuts and we can connect and talk about it. What do you think, Michael?
Michael: Sure, sure. It helps if you have some. An old collection of comic books you could sell to buy an apartment.
Jimmy: That is the most amazing. The most amazing. What was the most valuable? You don't have to tell us the amount, but what issue was the most, valuable comic that you sold?
Michael: Well, I still have a couple that are valuable, but the Spider man annual number one essentially bought me an olive grove and a vineyard.
Jimmy: That's all right. That's pretty good.
Harold: That's impressive.
Liz: You had, another one?
Jimmy: Oh, this is from Zach from Orlando.
VM: Hey there, gang. I just listened to your anniversary show. I think that was March 17th. And when the topic was, how did these underground cartoonists in the 60s and 70s, how do they get the ideas of their art from these old comic circuits? The twenties, because y' all covered a couple of those. And it just hit me, Bill Blackbeard was in San Francisco. I don't know when he started his. His own museum of like, what, 75 tons of cartoons and comic strips. But maybe that's where that came from because he was obsessively collecting everything in the late 60s. And maybe from. And the others dropped in on old Bill and San Francisco and went, hey, that's really cool stuff. But, no, that just hit me. Awesome show. This is, Zach from Orlando. Love your shows and still trying to catch up. All right, be of good cheer.
Michael: I actually have an answer, but it's going to require him to get the biography of Robert Crumb, which came out two years ago. And he goes into depth about how these guys were going around into old junk shops and buying, you know, records from the 30s. And at that point, people were buying old newspapers and comic sections. And I think that's probably how they found a lot of that stuff, because nobody wanted it. It was just old junk. And, you know, the 78s, which now are incredibly valuable.
Jimmy: Right.
Michael: You know, were like 15 cents or something.
Harold: Something.
Michael: So read that. It's an early chapter where he really goes into detail on how these-- Crumb especially-- how he discovered these artists and, you know, it's work that nobody was familiar with.
Jimmy: do you have a title for that book?
Liz: It's just called Crumb, isn't it?
Michael: It's called Crumb, I think. Anyway, great book. I highly recommend it in any case.
Harold: And as far as Blackbeard is concerned, he started his San Francisco Academy of comic art in 1968, Wikipedia says, and he was collecting the, I guess the bound newspapers that the libraries were throwing out as microfiche came into style and they needed more room in the libraries. So he just got tons and tons of these bound volumes of newspapers and began to collect these strips that otherwise were unavailable in San Francisco. So if anyone was in the comics scene, I don't know how he overlapped, but I bet there were quite a few people that knew what he had and were incredibly interested in whatever he collected.
Michael: Well, I used to work in comic in a bookstore that had probably the most, the most amazing collection of old comics. And part of our job was to take these old Flash Gordon Sunday pages and bag em. And there was like stacks and stacks of these things. So people were starting to pay attention to actually collecting old newspaper strips.
Harold: That's great.
Jimmy: We also heard from super listener Shaylee Robson. I was wrapping up the last episode of the Van Pelts and I got to the part where you talked about the Professor Garfield segment. I remember playing a few of the games when I was younger about Internet safety. I recall the short Amelia clips you have mentioned. If I recall, they're on YouTube. Oh, posted by Cappy App. I didn't know that. Those are up there on YouTube.
Michael: There you go.
Jimmy: And we also heard from Captain Billy who said hi, super fan Captain Billy here. On the Mean Girls 2 episode you discussed the Ding Dong School Mr. Rogers TV format where somebody on the TV talked directly to the viewer. Please look up Ms. Rachel on YouTube and see how many views she gets. Obviously none of you have grandkids. Great show. But please tell Michael to give someone else a chance to talk.
Michael: I'll never say another word.
Jimmy: That's it? yeah, no, that Ms. Rachel's huge. Crazy big. Yeah.
Oh, by the way, actually I have an exciting thing I want to announce is very cool. Okay. My. I don't normally talk about family stuff, but my lovely daughter Stella, who just graduated from Temple University in the film department, is already nominated for a Mid Atlantic Emmy Award as the executive producer of the live Temple comedy show Temple Smash. She was nominated for an Emmy Award, which is crazy. I was also nominated for this exact same emmy award like 20 years ago and did not.
Harold: That's crazy.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: So Congratulations, Stella.
Jimmy: Yeah, good for her.
Liz: I hope that she doesn't have to wait as long as you do for.
Jimmy: I'm still waiting.
Harold: Well, we were watching a clip from the Emmys the other night, and, they did a very emotional. Jamie Lee Curtis came out for the very emotional tribute to Rob Reiner, and she mentioned that he held the record for the most years between winning a best. I think it was the best actor award for the Emmys. It was like a gap of, like, 48 years or something.
Jimmy: Oh, wow.
Harold: And she said. And it was a record previously held by his father, Carl.
Jimmy: Oh, my gosh. that is amazing. That is some good company to be
Michael: I have a question to the panel here.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Michael: Wouldn't you like to see Mel Brooks and Dick Van Dyke get together and do something?
Jimmy: Yeah.
Liz: Yes.
Harold: Yes. Maybe Dick Van Dyke shows up in Spaceballs Two.
Jimmy: Oh, that could be it.
Harold: That's. You start a rumor.
Jimmy: He would be a great, like, C3PO type.
Michael: Yeah.
Michael: You know?
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: Amazing.
Jimmy: Well, that's a good call, Michael. Get on that.
Michael: Yeah.
Jimmy: All right, guys, let's say we go back to do some more of these fall strips.
Liz: Let's do.
Harold: Sure.
October 31, 1985. An adorable Sally, dressed in a little witch outfit, is out trick or treating. she's carrying her sack of candy behind her. She walks up to the door, rings the bell, stands there expectantly, and then looks out at us and says, I forgot the words.
Harold: This.
Michael: This calls back to the very early Peanuts strips. This could have worked in 1952.
Jimmy: Yes.
Michael: With any of. Any of the characters.
Jimmy: It was just that very minimal. Minimal gag.
Harold: Uh-huh.
Harold: Yeah. And I don't know if this is what Schulz went through as a. As a young kid, and he never forgot being in that space where you now have to speak publicly in front of somebody you don't know. Linus is complaining about it for the. For the Christmas plays. I can't memorize these lines.
Jimmy: And I have a question that. I don't know if it was just the coal region where I grew up, but there were, like, older people who would answer the door on Halloween, and they'd expect you to do something,
Harold: like
Jimmy: put on a little show or something. Like, everyone had to, like, have a poem memorized or stuff. Do you know this?
Harold: No, I've never did. You know, this. Going. Going in and have something prepared.
Jimmy: Some people. Well, if I went with my pal Patty Senial, she always had something. She had, like, a song or. She was always ready to go.
Harold: The Midnight Ride...
Jimmy: But so strange. And it was only old people like it. Must have been something from years ago.
Harold: And all you're going to get was a BB Batts or a piece of Brock's hard candy.
Jimmy: we got some good candy in Girardville, man. Full size popcorn balls.
Michael: Wow.
Jimmy: All kinds of good stuff.
Harold: Yeah.
Harold: Wow. So they were putting some effort into it and they expected you to as well.
Jimmy: Expected you to as well. Exactly. Which is basically how all of life was. What do you think of Sally's little witch hat that looks like a traffic cone?
Liz: It really does.
Michael: What's the sorcerer's hat? It's not necessarily a witch's hat, is it?
Liz: Yes, it's a witch's hat.
Michael: Okay.
Jimmy: Very, very cute.
Harold: The little dead bush next to the.
Jimmy: Oh, yeah, it's just lost its leaves.
Liz: Its leaves have fallen.
Jimmy: Yeah.
Harold: All right. Yeah, it's a living bush. Sorry.
Jimmy: It's just in slumber.
October 25th, 1953. It's a Sunday. Starts off with one of those symbolic panels, which is very cute. It's a row of jack, o' lanterns across the top, then the word peanuts, and beneath it, a row of Charlie Brown heads that match the jack o' lanterns up on top. Then we, start the strip and we see someone underneath its chest saying, boo. And then he goes up to which is, I guess Schroeder and Violet. And they're all yelling boo at each other.
Michael: That could be a girl. Look at those shoes.
Jimmy: It is a girl. Yes, you're right. With a little skirt.
And then Violet introduces who it is. She says, ha. You look great, Patty. So we got Schroeder, Patty and Violet. And Schroeder's wearing a really strange mask, and Violet's, in a witch outfit. And Schroeder says, I agree. I've never seen you looking better. And then Patty says, I've always enjoyed Halloween ever since I was a kid. Violet, why don't we get going? Then Schroeder's looking around and he says, we can't. We have to wait until Charlie Brown gets here. Patty sits down and says, we'd never make it without Charlie Brown. No, sir. And then they react to something off panel. And Schroeder says, here he comes now. And he's got it. He's got it. Patty says, he has. Oh, boy. Good old Charlie Brown. Now we're all set. And as they walk off saying tricks or treats, money or eats, we see Charlie Brown, who is not in a costume, but he is pushing a beautifully drawn shopping cart.
Jimmy: That's a heck Of a shopping cart.
Liz: It really is. Yeah, it's gonna go in the.
Michael: That's AI. come on.
Liz: That's going in the gallery.
Jimmy: Yeah, that could go in the old gallery.
Michael: Yeah.
Michael: yeah. Charlie Brown is not, the Charlie Brown we see afterwards. He's still one of the. One of the gang.
Harold: He's good old Charlie Brown.
Liz: Yeah. We can't. We'd never make it without Charlie Brown. No, sir.
Harold: Yeah, that's a bit of surprise. Right.
Jimmy: Looking back, I really like the Sundays in this era when he would put all that extra detail like that third. The last panel on the second tier, I just love. I mean, it's really outside of. All of them are pretty outside of Peanuts, but I like that a lot.
Harold: Yeah, a lot of detail. A lot of blacks and spotted and it's just not what you'd expect from your typical pizza peanut strip. And it's beautiful.
Jimmy: Yep. Really, really cute. All right, well, you know what? Charlie Brown is a good guy and we wouldn't get anywhere without him. So we'll be back in two weeks when we are talking about more fall stuff. If you want to keep this conversation going between now and then, a, couple things you should do. First off, go over to the. To the Unpacking Peanuts website. Sign up for the great Peanuts reread. Get that one email a month sent to you, let you know what we're covering. You can email us@ unpackingpeanutsmail.com you can call the hotline or leave a text message. 717-219-4162 or you can follow us on social media, we are Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads and npackingpeanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. And remember, when I don't hear from you, I worry. So that's it for this week. Hope you have a great fall. See you in two weeks. Until then, from Michael, Harold and Liz. This is Jimmy saying, be of good cheer.
Michael: Yes.
Liz: Yes, Be of good cheer. Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner. Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark. For more from the show, follow Unpacked Peanuts on any Instagram and threads. Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts. Com. Have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.
Liz: I don't know. I was 8 years old and I had a big knife.