Understanding Snoopy # 4 - As You See Him You Will Draw Him

Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. This is Unpacking Peanuts and today we're continuing our look at everyone's favorite beagle, Snoopy. 

I'll be your host for the proceedings. My name's Jimmy Gownley. Guess what? I'm also a cartoonist and you can find all my work over there on Substack at GVILLE Comics. 

Joining me, as always, are, my pals, co hosts and fellow cartoonists. He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People as well as for this very podcast. He's the co creator of the original comic book price guide and the original editor for Amelia Rules. He's also the cartoonist of such great strips as Strange Attractors, A Gathering of Spells and Tangled River. It's Michael Cohen.

Michael: Say hey.

Jimmy: And he's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former vice president of Archie Comics, and the creator of the Instagram sensation Sweetest Beasts. It's Harold Buchholz.

Harold: Hello.

Jimmy: And making sure we stay out of trouble, it's our producer and editor, Liz Sumner. 

Liz: Howdy, 

Jimmy: guys. We're taking a look at Snoopy. We're back here. Our season, it was a little, would you call it like season-interruptus. We had, a few episodes and we had, we were just so lucky to have such amazing guests that we had to take advantage of that opportunity. And now we're back here talking, about Snoopy. 

So I was, slated to pick some strips to talk about and when I did, I went looking to see what I could find. I went on the old Peanuts wiki and I happened to find something very, very cool that we have been talking about for a long time, wishing someone had done. And it turns out someone had done it. And it is a chart or it's in, what would you call it? It's a graphic of all the variations on Snoopy, including even the pre Snoopy's from like little folks and, and wherever else he was doing cartoon Saturday Evening Post all the way up to the very last appearance of Snoopy in 2000. And it's really cool because it gets to, to see, you get to see the changes that happen over 50 years in just one little graphic. What'd you guys think of this?

Michael: I think it's great. I hope they can see it when we're talking about it. Yeah, I've been thinking about doing this, but I'm glad somebody else took the time. They're all profiles, so it makes it easy to compare. Yeah, I mean, generally you would talk about this as in terms of the evolution of a character, but I don't see this as an evolution. I mean, it's definitely a morphing of the character, but it's not like he reaches his ideal state at the end. I mean, to me, if you just look at it, there's a little panel dead center. To me, that is the ideal platonic Snoopy. And so I see it sort of evolving towards that and then kind of a devolution for all you devo fans from there.

Jimmy: Well, what don't you like about the later ones other than you were older?

Michael: He looks dumb to me.

Jimmy: Okay, Harold, how about you?

Harold: you mean like he's not as smart? Doesn't look like a smart character because of the way he's drawn?

Michael: No, he looks like a very simple-minded character. I mean he's not. But the look doesn't imply intelligence in any way.

Harold: And so when your favorite drawing, what is it about the drawing that gives him some intelligence?

Michael: You think, well, he does have a huge cranium.

Harold: Okay.

Michael: Yeah, it's funny. I mean, it's really hard to talk about these because it's not that the changes are that subtle, but I don't think there was a point in the changes. I think it just happened. I don't think he was striving for something. I mean, it's not my favorite. Snoopy is still the, the banana nose.

Harold: Snoopy, which is remarkably short period. When you look at through all of these, it's like there are almost no banana noses.

Jimmy: Well, and it's also the thing that stands out the most from the one before it to the one after it. Like if that second one from the right on the second tier, it looks like it's wild and then it goes back to like what it was previous, but never quite. Never quite.

Harold: Well, that's second to the right on the second tier. And then you just move up northwest to that to this little cute, staring Snoopy and just go back and forth between those and have your head explode.

Michael: Yeah, that's like five years difference or so.

Harold: But I think, you know, we need to do a, five episode season on Snoopy's Collar No, we probably could, but. No, I'm just joking.

Jimmy: Just three episodes. Come on.

Harold: Three.

Liz: Yeah.

Harold: Ah, we could.

Michael: I don't know how random his selection, his or her selection was of these Snoopies, but there's almost none with a mouth.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: By the way, this was posted by Disgruntled Filament.

Michael: Okay.

Harold: Yes.

Jimmy: All credit to them.

Harold: Disgruntled Filament. Yes. But it's remarkable how consistent Snoopy gets In the last 15 or so images, given how crazy the movement was in the first half of Peanuts, you know that. No wonder that's what people remember as the Snoopy, because that's the Snoopy that was around the longest.

Jimmy: Yeah, you will see. Yeah. And you will see some mid. Like some 60s and 70s Snoopies as well. But, you know, like, especially Hallmark will often. Someone, I think, just really likes that period because you'll see some 60s and 70s.

Harold: There are some. Yeah. So, Jimmy, as you look across this, do you have any favorite drawings that pop out to you on this for those who could get to look at this alongside us?

Jimmy: Well, I do like that center one as well. I mean, you know, that's great. I like the banana nose one on the second tier, too, where he looks kind of angry. That has a lot of personality. But I love the last 15 years. I think they're. You know, that's great. If you think about. I was seven, 1972, I was born. So it was already well into, what, the third tier, I would say, before I was even seeing Peanuts. And I didn't see the early ones until, you know, probably I was like 12 or 13. So, yeah, I would say it's probably the third and fourth tier that is the stuff I like the best. It would have been great if we could complain about this. Sorry. Disgruntled Filament. It would have been great to have all them facing the same direction. And there actually is a sculpture like that, at the museum that it's like a modernist sculpture that shows the morphing of Snoopy.

Harold: I certainly love a lot of the stuff that's going on, particularly in that third tier. There's, interesting art there. But I have to say that first tier, fourth from the left, the little. When he started, Instead of just doing the dot for the eye, but he started kind of making the eye a little taller than the width and, little staring Cute. Staring Snoopy from the early 50s is pretty. Pretty irresistible.

Jimmy: Although I guess what we're seeing, the first actual Snoopy is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. The seventh one from the left on the first tier. The rest are all L’il folks, I believe.

Harold: I think that's right. Yeah. So, yeah.

Jimmy: Or whatever beforehand. And you really see him trying to, like, draw a dog in that first one.

Harold: I will say I am not a fan of the second tier first drawings. When he. The. The ear turned into this massive headphone. Jackie Kennedy. I don't know what's going on.

Liz: headphone

Jimmy: Yeah. Headphone look as well. Yeah.

Harold: But it runs for quite a while. You know, you go pretty deep in that second tier and it's still there. So. But it's crazy what happens around 1958, which, you know, these aren't. These aren't years on here. But for those of us who have the banana nose, the. Yeah. The elongated version and still some wonk in the ears, it's. It's.

Liz: It's almost years because, I mean, there's 52 of them, so.

Harold: Yeah, so that probably was the exercise. Yeah, there was one a year.

Jimmy: Wow. okay, Michael, As someone who is completing a work that they started a long time ago and also redoing a bunch of that work, do you see that type of shift in your work as you go back and relook at it?

Michael: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jimmy: But not conscious of it at all during it, right?

Michael: No, no. And it also, you know, you like to think of it as, you know, again, the evolution of the character. But I find the sort of the middle period is sort of like what I consider nailing it. And then some of the later ones are, look, I have to redraw them because this is kind of deviating a little too much.

Jimmy: so wild.

Harold: And Jimmy, you were just talking about that you had to go through that by revisiting for the 25th anniversary of Amelia Rules, you had to do some covers that kind of reflected what was on the inside. Whole stories.

Jimmy: Whole stories.

Michael: Wow.

Harold: And that, I mean. And you said it was really hard to get back into where your head was 25 years ago. Drawing a character, even though that's your character through and through, you drew it. You have the 25-year muscle memory of whatever it was. But then everything's come since then.

Jimmy: Yeah, well, that's what, ultimately muscle memory is exactly Right. I almost had to just not. Not try, you know, just go. Okay. I. I know that I was thinking about the strokes more than I was about the shapes, and I was using this tool. And now we're just gonna try to go for it. Because the problem is when you start, how can you not try to improve it? Right. Like, if you're trying to go back to draw like you used to draw, but the reason you don't draw like that is because you've been trying to improve for all these years. Right. So you have to go back and, like, unimprove. And the thing is, no one else would even. Not. Or not no one. But many people would not consider it an improvement.

Harold: Right.

Jimmy: Like we're talking about here with Schulz. Right.

Harold: I mean, Schulz would probably have said he. He's happier with the end. I mean, we know he said that. Right. Than the beginning. Otherwise he wouldn't be drawing it that way. Right, right. It's just chronological, you know. Why would he be drawing a Snoopy? He doesn't want to be drawing when he can draw whatever Snoopy he wants to draw. But, yeah, looking at it as a fan and seeing it out of time and, picking and choosing, you come to different conclusions.

Liz: Yeah.

Michael: Another big factor is time constraints.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Michael: You know, when you're starting out as a cartoonist, you're doing it, you know, you're probably still in school.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Michael: And, you know, there's no pressure. And later on, if you have some success and you've got. Okay. You know, got a monthly schedule.

Jimmy: Right.

Michael: And the faster you work, the more things are going to vary from exactly the way you want them.

Harold: But you also get better in that time. Right. Because you have to be.

Jimmy: Right.

Harold: Creating. Creating, creating.

Michael: Yeah.

Harold: That's also like a fertile time to.

Michael: You might have less time to. To actually go back and fix things.

Harold: Right. And,

Jimmy: Which sometimes could work to your advantage. You know, you can. Because you can overwork things. I think if there's one thing, like when I was starting, you know, and doing, like, Shades of Gray and stuff, my, my. Well, my problem. That could be an entire. Another podcast we do. One of my problems as an artist was that I would overwork things because I would think it would get better. And it didn't get better. It just got wonkier. so sometimes, like, having time can be, you know, a downside, too.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I tended to way overwork everything because I was hoping it would distract from the fact that I couldn't draw.

Harold: Oh, me too.

Jimmy: That's exactly.

Harold: Oh, there's something to that. You know, what was it? Mark Twain. I'd be badly paraphrasing, but he said, I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time.

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: You know, the idea that. And Frank Camuso mentioned to me at a Baltimore Comic Con, his theory that the nature of cartooning, for it to genuinely be great cartooning, it has to be done quickly. he said that was just kind of part of what cartooning is. And I think I know what he's talking about. But it's hard to get there because you really have to boil something down to its essence and know what all of the pieces are that come together to get the thing that's dashed off that you can't hide behind anything. It's just there because there's so few lines. If that's the style of cartooning you're doing, and I feel like that's. It's true for the cartooning that I really like is somebody has managed to figure out their style so well that they can put it off really quickly. I mean, I look at that upper left version, that very first drawing in this, in this section, is, there an artist that makes you think of other than Schulz when you see that upper left drawing?

Michael: That dog?

Harold: Yeah.

Michael: I don't know, something like Freddy the Pig or something.

Harold: Jimmy, does anybody stand out to you that they think, oh, that's the style of.

Jimmy: Not really.

Harold: Okay, well, I was thinking Thurber.

Jimmy: Oh, my gosh. Absolutely.

Harold: The.

Jimmy: Even the round, not filled in nose, the like shakiness of the line that feels like it's not describing something as much as it's like holding something in, like.

Liz: Yeah, yeah.

Harold: And I'm guessing based on what we know about Schulz, he was so well read.

Jimmy: Oh, he loved Thurber and loved the cartoons of Thurber, which is really funny actually.

Harold: So, yeah, it's a, it's interesting to see, you know, but to be able to turn something out so, so quickly and in a way that just feels right. You can't fake it. But once you're there, if you're in that zone, that's. I guess that is part of what makes cartooning really special.

Michael: Somebody's been posting a lot of Onstage Leonard Starr stories, beautiful work. And then they're also posting, he started drawing Annie, Little Orphan Annie in a completely simplified style. And to me it's like, what a waste. I don't know. How do you feel about that?

Harold: Well, being a fan of Little Orphan Annie and a fan of many of the artists who worked on Little Orphan Annie after Harold Gray as artists and cartoonists, it's just one of those things where the person who created it as strange. I mean, let me put it this way. If Harold Gray, the original artist and writer of Orphan Annie, if Harold Gray had been the guy who took over Little Orphan Annie from somebody else, we'd be like, what the heck is this? Since he's the original, he just goes with the work and it just fits. And again, that's Maybe kind of how we first all experience Snoopy. I'm sure we have people who are listening. They didn't experience Snoopy until after Schulz had stopped drawing Snoopy. And there's other people that all came in at different times. And how we relate to that, it's really, really strange. But Leonard Starr's version, as talented as he is, I don't think anybody ever did justice to the concept of Little Orphan Annie, except for the creator. It was just so unique, his signature, including all of his flaws. And it just. It's him. And I. I mean, I do like the musical, I will say that. And I'm glad it's in the public mind, even if it's not what the guy originally created. I don't think he would have liked the musical.

Jimmy: Oh, well, here's a. Okay. The Leonard Starr thing is interesting, and I think that also reminds me a little bit of, like, Dick Tracy, where it's like, yeah, everybody who came after Chester Gould did a really good Dick Tracy. Really, but it's not Dick Tracy. And the further thing with the Leonard Starr thing is what a weird choice. Was it because. Do you think they picked, Leaving aside the facility, he could do it, you know, which is hard enough. But do you think they picked him as, like, this guy is such a good artist, he could probably do it in any style. Because you also have the exact same thing happening with Heart of Juliet Jones, where, Stan Drake ends up drawing Blondie.

Harold: and did a darn good job of it. Yeah, yeah. That's probably more successful and amazing. And. Yeah, both of them amazing. Amazing, amazing artists and versatile, obviously. I mean, did we talk about this? Is there anybody you can think of who took over something that somebody else created and made it their own?

Jimmy: Where I think Fred Lasswell or whoever it was that did Barney, Google and Snuffy Smith, but that became like a different strip from Billy deBeck.

Harold: Right. Although, I mean, I still would pick Billy's version over, But you're right, it's a very. Fred Lashwell made that his own, for sure.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: but I'm trying to think of other cartoonists.

Michael: I mean, clearly the Disney characters found artists who've varied much from the originals. And Carl Barks. Carl. Barks in particular. Same with Archie.

Jimmy: Same with.

Michael: You should know about that.

Harold: Sure. Yeah. Right, Right. But in the world of comic strips, it's harder to think. There's so many people have taken over strips.

Michael: Yeah, but we don't necessarily think of Donald and Mickey and Archie as comic strips. But they were

Harold: And some really good comic strips too.

Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, here I want to ask another question about the art style and what is cartooning and all that sort of stuff. So like, okay, Prince Valiant. Everybody at least knows what Prince Valiant is out and where. Even if you've never read it, you know what it looks like. Prince Valiant is a comic, you would have to say, because it was written and drawn by Hal Foster. Hal Foster is a cartoonist. But the art is not cartoony.

Jimmy: So I don't know if there's an end to it.

Harold: No word balloons, no dialogue.

Jimmy: Yeah. And the, and the draftsmanship is, is really like, you know, he's trying to go for, for pure realism.

Harold: Yeah. And I, as a kid, you know, who loved comics and we had Prince Valiant in the back, in the back page of the comics.

Jimmy: Always on the back page.

Harold: Yeah, it was, it was this kind of stunning artwork. And I, I remember as a little kid when I was really into the comic strips and I'm, of course I'm going to read every single comic and maybe five, eight times I, I forced my way through Prince Valiant reading it. I'm like, this is not what I, I'm here for.

Michael: Yeah. There was no, there was no easy on ramp to Prince Valiant. You just had to jump in the middle.

Jimmy: But I'm just saying, like, that's just. Yeah. That style of art. Like, what is that? Cartooning?

Michael: Yeah.

Harold: Yeah, I guess it is. It's. It's definitely. I always think of that, that pyramid thing that Scott McCloud created in his Understanding Comics book, that represented the different styles of art and he has the heads of all these famous cartoon characters. And on the top of the pyramid you've got the abstract version where there's almost nobody because there's not a whole lot of Picasso characters in comics. And then on the left hand side, lower left corner of the triangle, you've got Realistic and Prince Valiance, like right there and then you go off to the far right and there you got Mickey Mouse and Snoopy and all the characters that I kind of gravitate toward that are what he calls iconic. And then he takes a sliver of that pyramid to the right going down and he calls that the word, which is the ultimate icon. And that just is fascinating to me. I've brought it up before, but the idea that the word. My favorite stuff with comics is when the word is as close to an image as possible, which I would say is like poetic writing or very succinct writing, like haiku kind of Writing, which is what comics are, I think. like comic strips, let's say. And then the characters that are as close to the word as a drawing can be. And that's where the magic happens for me with comics. But that's not to deny that Prince Valiant doesn't belong to me in that.

Michael: No, I'm totally a lower left guy. I mean, that's the stuff that gets me excited.

Harold: So how does Peanuts is Peanuts. It's not the exception. Because you like Blinn county and some other stuff, right?

Michael: Yeah. But if we were talking, and we have talked, you guys have talked about it being an influence, I'd say, no, not at all.

Harold: Right.

Michael: Lower left guys who were people I would have wanted to have been able to draw, like.

Harold: Yeah.

Michael: But still a cartoonist. I mean, unfortunately, we don't have the right vocabulary. Right. I mean, Sequential Illustrator might be a better word, but no one's going to say that.

Jimmy: it's the worst. All right, well, before we go off this, I have one other question about. I just thought it was the coolest thing, and I thought it would inspire a lot of conversation, and I think it has here, because we're 26 minutes into recording. Hey, so here's my question. If in 1995, Charles Schulz wanted to do a thing where he introduced the, Like a time travel element, and he brought in Banana Nose Snoopy and Beethoven Ear Snoopy, you know, somehow interacted with the modern Snoopy, would people all. Would you recognize them all as Snoopy? Or would they, look like different characters if you saw them together? Because I think, like, it seems like no matter what version of Snoopy you see out in the wild, whoever you are, you accept it as Snoopy.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: Even though there are. They are so different from each other.

Michael: Yeah. Well, I think you. Everyone who likes this strip probably has some collection that has all the characters, all the variants in it.

Jimmy: Right.

Michael: Just because there have been so many reprints.

Liz: But when you're talking about bringing them back in 1995, would they be together in a strip or would one panel have one?

Jimmy: Well, that's where my analogy sort of breaks down, but I guess. Or how about even this. Let me put it a different way. Let's say he just started drawing Banana and a Snoopy in 1995 or whatever. Would people accept that as Snoopy?

Michael: No, because it's not cute in any way. It had to do. His personality was different, too. And I think that, that look fit what Snoopy was like in those days.

Jimmy: Well, do you Think that has an influence. Like, do you. What do you think works? Do you think Snoopy changed in Schulz's mind and therefore it translated into a changing in his art?

Harold: Or. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. As. As you see him, you will draw him.

Michael: Yeah, he was a chaos agent. he was chaotic, neutral.

Liz: What did he become after that?

Michael: He was kind of an adult figure.

Jimmy: Yeah, he was an adult figure.

Michael: Very sedate.

Jimmy: Looking after the birds. Yeah.

Harold: Yep, yep. He's like a big brother.

Jimmy: Well, one of the things I want to talk about, and we, believe it or not, we are going to talk about some comic strips today. but one of the things I want to talk about next time is just Snoopy and Woodstock, because I do think that has. That changes Snoopy so much. I think that changes Snoopy more than anything else in the course of the strip?

Harold: I agree. I agree. As somebody who. Yeah, I started out with my little loner lion who was kind of philosophical. And so there's this one version of himself. As soon as you introduce another character, his role changes. Absolutely changes. And it's the same character, but, yep, being around somebody else brings out a different piece of you for sure, and in a fairly consistent way. And so if that's all we've experienced is, you know, Snoopy is like as. Like Michael's saying, he's kind of this. This agent of chaos in the world of the suburban landscape of these kids. And then all of a sudden, he becomes kind of the elder statesman, author. You know, the very last strip we see that Schulz chose to use is him at the typewriter, you know, speaking for Schulz, the creator of 50 years. And that's a very different Snoopy than 1958.

Jimmy: And it explains why Andrew Farago was able to do, a life story.

Liz: Yeah.

Jimmy: You know, because he does behave like, It does behave like a life, which is amazing.

Harold: Yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy: All right, well, you know what? I think we have covered one graphic as much as we possibly can. One more shout out to good old disgruntled filament. Thank you for doing this. It's very cool.

Harold: Yeah, yeah. And that's a. That was a good 344 dog years. Snoopy. That's awesome.

Jimmy: Well lived. all right, well, listen, we're going to take a quick break and then come back on the other side and actually talk about some strips I picked.

Liz: Sounds good. 

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Jimmy: All right, so how about we, we look at some, some Snoopy comic strips, guys? So here I picked these, but here's how I picked them. I wanted to try to get myself out of it as much as possible, so I just googled my favorite Snoopy comics, literally my favorite. And I just went on the image search and I found some ones that I liked. And the ones that we. I don't think we talked about before, although maybe one or two we have, and they're from all over the latter half of the. Of the run, of the strip. So what do you say we just get to it and it's going to be pure anarchy, chaos here on. And we are going to start with 

November 26, 1999. It's a Sunday, and Woodstock is, sitting in his. His nest. It's raining on him, and he just has a little umbrella over his head. And then we cut to inside the Brown household. And Charlie Brown's in his chair reading that same book he's never finished. Sally is with him, and Snoopy is kind of reading the book over Charlie Brown by resting on Charlie Brown's head while Charlie Brown reads. And they're all looking off panel at something. And Sally says, listen to the thunder. And then in the next tier, we see them at the window looking outside and it's pouring rain. And Sally says, I'm glad we're inside. This is the worst storm I've ever seen. And then, we see a reverse shot with them looking out into the darkness. And Charlie Brown says, I always think about all the animals who have to be outside. And Sally says, and the birds. And Charlie Brown says, that's right. Birds and deer and squirrels and rabbits and Sally and stray cats and Charlie Brown and horses and cows and little bugs. And Snoopy is listening to all of this. And then the next panel, he walks away. And then when he comes back, he's in full rain gear holding a giant policeman's flashlight. And Charlie Brown says to him, no, I don't think we can go out and rescue all of them. 

Now this talks a little bit about. We're seeing the later Snoopy be much more of like a dad figure, you know, I think you could see the, like, 1958 Snoopy saying, like, oh, Stinks to be a bug or whatever it is, you know? but this Snoopy wants, you know, who's been Woodstock's friend for all these years now. He wants to go out and rescue all the little helpless creatures.

Harold: Well. And yet Charlie Brown is the parent to Snoopy in a way.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Harold: Because he's the one giving the reality of the situation to Snoopy's. Snoopy? yeah. I don't know, maybe Snoopy the Eagle Scout or whatever. You know, he's the big brother. Would you consider Snoopy parental toward Woodstock or big brotherly to Woodstock?

Jimmy: Yeah, big brotherly is a good way to put it. You know, just very friend of friends.

Harold: You know, really the older, good friend.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: The Shermy, if you will.

Jimmy: I love the shots of them looking out into the black night sky.

Harold: I think it looks very wet and lightning strikes.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Liz: And the way the rain sort of stops like fringe, when. From the outside.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. 

June 2, 1969. Snoopy's atop the doghouse and Charlie Brown is standing next to him and reading, the newspaper. And Charlie Brown reads it and says, it says here that they're having a dog show. And then Charlie Brown looks up at Snoopy and says, have, you ever thought of entering a dog show? And then Snoopy's alone on the doghouse, and he thinks, how could I? And then he lies down in his classic pose and says, I don't even own a dog. 

Jimmy: Now. That's very Snoopy.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: What do you think of this one, Michael?

Michael: Yeah, I remember this one from the days when I was buying all the books. Yeah. I mean, it's clever because it's a little ambiguous. I mean, there's a joke there, the dog owning a dog, but he's actually misunderstanding what Charlie Brown was asking him.

Jimmy: Yeah. And I love that Snoopy just doesn't really think of himself as a dog all the time. Sometimes he certainly does, but not in this moment. He certainly not a dog that would be in the, in the dog show. Here's we see another example of that. Schulz going for the iconic pose and not worrying about anything else. The neck on Snoopy in panel one versus the neck on Snoopy in panel four.

Harold: Yeah. It's crazy. I would feel so guilty as a cartoonist doing this. And I think Schulz kind of gives us some permission to go for that iconic pose. What looks great. Snoopy will be Snoopy. We're not going to forget it's Snoopy. We're not going to judge him. We really aren't, you know, if it looks good, it's right, you know. Yeah. And that's. That's a good thing for a cartoonist to remember. If you're that style of cartoonist, obviously more realistic people, artists would maybe not want to deviate from their model, but, boy, that. That's a lot of license he gives other artists. Look. Look at what. Look what he did. A master of the form.

Jimmy: Yeah. And I'll tell you what, if you. If you tried to, in quotes, fix it, which I'm doing right now on the iPad, and, like, make that, you.

Harold: Know, it's gonna look freaky.

Jimmy: It looks really. It looks almost painful because it looks like he's balanced on. It's. No, it's really disturbing looking. It looks less like Snoopy, even though it looks more like the first drawing. It's very strange.

Liz: Does it need to have the bolding on own?

Harold: I think in later years, he probably wouldn't have done that. I think he really got away from a lot of emphasis as he went along. I, don't know if that's in part because he trained us how to read. We were talking about how Schulz somehow knew how to get us to read things where we didn't lose the punchline or the humor, even if we don't have the sense of humor or the. What he's thinking. It's so hard to write something where the humor can't be lost by a good chunk of the people reading it because it involves timing. Right. You can't control the timing in reading of a comic. And I think that's why Chris Duffy, who worked on Nickelodeon magazine, among other things, he was asking on Facebook years ago, he said, you know, think of a comic book series that was genuinely funny, you know, and he's like, I mean, genuinely funny. Laugh out loud funny. And people were struggling to think of something. And I think that's part of why, because, how do you make people think something is funny when you don't control the timing beyond some really rudimentary things like panel breaks and balloon lines and maybe a little bit of emphasis here and there. it's really, really hard. And it's remarkable that I guess he's successful. Maybe he's no more successful than anyone else, other than having that really good haiku writing style that has less room for interpretation. It doesn't. But I think maybe it's because we relate to Peanuts on many levels other than humor, that even if you're not the kind of mind that can turn Something into humor, with timing, with dialogue. You still get something out of it. I don't know.

Jimmy: Well, to the lettering thing the other way, if there was no bold on the last panel, it could be I don't even own a dog, I don't even own a dog, or I don't even own a dog. I'm not convinced that I don't even own a dog isn't just as funny as I don't even own a dog.

Harold: But yeah, and maybe that was Schulz thinking subconsciously or consciously, he preferred one over the other. And he could be ready. Either way, he was going to lean in on his version so that people would land where his attention was.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's probably right. Great, great pen and ink artwork, at this stage, obviously.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: If we've ever. I don't know if you ever mentioned that before, but.

Harold: And those W's, they're gorgeous W's.

January 22, 1967. Snoopy in his tattered, biblical looking clothes is wandering around in the dirt, thinking to himself, unclean, unclean, unclean, unclean. And then we cut to inside the Brown house, where Sally says, mom says to wash your hands for dinner. And Charlie Brown then does so. And then after washing his hands, he gives Snoopy, his buddy, a good little pat on the head and says, excuse me, Snoopy, I have to go eat dinner. And Sally, who sees this, says, and you have to wash your hands again because you touched the dog. And Charlie Brown walks away annoyed, saying, oh, good grief, as he used to wash his hands again. And this shocks Snoopy, sending his ears skyward. Touch the dog, he thinks, touch the dog. He's staring, glaring at Sally. And Sally's like, stay away from me. My hands are clean. Now he's chasing her like the Frankenstein monster or something. Look out. I'm covered with disease. I'm filthy dirty. Stay away, I said says Sally as she runs. She's cornered by Snoopy, who's stalking her, saying, here comes the bubonic plague at my head and get a handful of germs. Here comes the walking disease carrier. Beware, Beware. Now he chases her up to the top of the back of the chair and he's saying, look out for me. I'm diseased, I'm contaminated. I'm. Sally screams, help. And then Snoopy walks away on all fours, looking completely annoyed, saying, touch the dog. Good grief.

Harold: This is one of the funniest Peanuts strips ever, I think.

Jimmy: I think it's so funny.

Harold: I love and this looks like one he. He. He loved. And he always said, you know, when he was working on a strip that he thought was really good, he would. He just want to get it done. He wanted to rush through it. And this one seems to have. Talk about off-model Snoopy. Almost every drawing here is some, funny, wonky version of Snoopy that isn't exactly what you would expect, which I think adds to the humor of it. It's like the unclean thing on the little throwaway panel. It's just amazing. And Charlie Brown petting Snoopy. His forehead is sloping backward to kind of go along with the pet of the hand. And then the surprise on Snoopy feels. Yeah, just feels very quickly drawn. And the very next panel where he's, like, looking with these raised eyebrows, like, touch the dog with this big, sad smile, big, sad, mouth, everything. And then, every single one. And then all of a sudden, he's this monster chasing her.

Jimmy: It's.

Harold: And especially the second to last drawing to me, looks crazy, crazy rough. I mean, I don't know if this is on purpose, but he. He doesn't bother to have a tail on Snoopy in profile in the bottom left panel or the second to last panel. Now he seems to think things through. I don't know why he didn't draw that. Maybe he knows he doesn't have to and doesn't think about it and he just wants to get it done. But it just seems like he's-- talk about working fast as a cartoonist and getting something. This just feels like a brilliantly rushed drawing that he just gets the essence of the emotion of what he's trying to do down because he's so confused.

Jimmy: I think you can really see that in the first panel. Like the foot. The foot that's coming towards us, that's just an oval with some lines in it.

Harold: Yeah, yeah. And the lettering suggests he's also just speeding through. This, mom says to wash your hands for dinner is some of the loosest Peanuts lettering you're ever gonna see.

Liz: Yeah, I think the second panel on the second tier has interesting perspective.

Jimmy: Yeah, you don't see that very often.

Harold: Yeah, we kind of see. You're seeing Sally kind of partially. I don't know what you call that in terms of a, a quarters view, whatever they say. But it's like a rear view where her ear.

Jimmy: 3/4 rear view.

Liz: Well, and she's larger in the foreground.

Harold: Yes. You don't see that a lot. It works really well.

Liz: But, Michael, you didn't Think this looked like 60s.

Michael: Well, I think you've explained it. Oh, I see it pretty well. Yeah, it's rushed 60s, because, I would have thought this was a 90s strip.

Harold: I will say one thing that looks absolutely gorgeous to me is Charlie Brown washing his hands in the bathroom.

Jimmy: Oh, my God. That's a great drawing.

Harold: That is so, so nice. And that apart from the rest of that. Seems like that was done with a lot of care. I don't know. That's weird.

Jimmy: Well, I think it's the feeling he has with, like, this is expressive because he is writing it from Snoopy. Snoopy's angst and emotion is the point of view of the strip, and it carries forward in the art. Not that he was sitting there thinking that consciously, but he felt it because.

Harold: He's feeling Snoopy's perspective, and he is feeling Snoopy here. You just. You just get goosebumps almost looking at it, because it's like. Yeah, he's going off model to. And it works. He's the. The. It's like he's doing what we see in manga all the time, where the Chibi character, you know, takes over because a character is super emotional, and yet it's still in the realm of traditional Snoopy. I do think the Chibi character concept is pretty brilliant and so true to comics.

Liz: I don't know what that is. Can you, tell me what it is?

Harold: Yeah. I might even be using the wrong. The wrong terminology, but anybody who's read manga, and I'm not a manga reader, but I absolutely do admire this. Whoever invented this is a genius. Where you have a character who's drawn a certain way, maybe more realistic, and then when they are super emotional, they're feeling embarrassed or greedy or whatever, there's this little version of them. And Jimmy, maybe you can describe this better than I can, but essentially, the character becomes this little icon of greed or avarice or fear or embarrassment. That is not the traditional drawing. It's just saying this is a little emoji almost to represent how strongly this character is feeling in this moment.

Liz: Thank you.

Jimmy: Yeah. No, that explains it. And explains it perfectly. Yeah. Really, really good. Now, let me ask you this. This question, guys. When you're drawing a character, are you sitting there making the expressions the character is making, or are you feeling the emotions?

Michael: Yeah, probably unconsciously.

Harold: Yeah. Yeah. I catch myself when I'm signing. When I'm signing and drawing little sketches, when I'm at. At my booth, I constantly. You know, you catch yourself, and at first, you Feel self conscious. You're like, what the heck? You know? Or I'll just draw a version that is him smiling. So I won't do anything goofy, you know, I won't draw something where I'd be like, whoa.

Jimmy: It's like this guitar face when you're playing guitar, right? But there's a great meme that went around years ago where someone just photoshopped, took the guitars out of the guitarist's hands and, and made them into giant slugs. I'll have to-. It is so funny.

Harold: Oh, what a great idea.

May 3, 1970. Snoopy's atop the doghouse having a little siesta. And then he wakes up in the second panel and he says, I'm hungry. And then he rolls over on his stomach and says, my head was sound asleep, my stomach was wide awake, it's midnight and I'm starving to death and there's no way for me to get a little snack. He looks back towards the house saying if I were a stupid cat, I could go out and catch a mouse. He's laying on his back again. My stomach needs a sleeping pill. No, my head needs a sleeping pill and my stomach needs a snack. And then as, if by magic, Charlie Brown appears with a full bowl of dog food and then walks back to the house. Charlie Brown in his, in his jammies. And then Snoopy looks down at the food and says, now how in the world did he know I was hungry? And then Charlie Brown, tucked back in bed in his room, says, who can sleep with all that mumbling going on? 

Jimmy: I love that Snoopy, who is out there having all these kinds of adventures and fantasies and going on hikes and with, and doing all this stuff, but he can't figure out how to get in and get his food. Like that is the one thing Charlie Brown has. If the Charlie Brown doesn't bring the food he's not eating. Just can't, cannot figure out how to do it. Now, what do you guys think about the 70s Snoopy look? I love it. I think it's, this is like, well.

Michael: It's, it's still 60ish. not that far off.

Jimmy: Getting a little bit fatter nose. I love the third panel in the second tier there, Snoopy just against the black.

Harold: Yeah. I say, you know, Schulz doesn't get a lot of comment on the coloring choices he did. Huh? He's all over the place with this and making. It's a really interesting strip. You know, it's late at night and he's using a couple different blues and solid black sometimes for the background. And then it turns into this kind of halo of.

Jimmy: Oh, I want to say that's exactly what it is.

Harold: Where there's basically this aura around the arrival of the food that is so beautiful. And I love that wonky talk about again, it's like sometimes the wonkiness is what makes it most special for emotion. On the second to last panel, you got Snoopy's ears going almost straightforward, like a profile flopped over. But the eyes are like almost facing us.

Harold: And I love that drawing. I agree. I probably love that middle drawing that you mentioned, Jimmy, more. But that particular drawing, it captures an emotion again, where I feel like he's drawing quickly and he knows this is not typical Snoopy, but he's capturing something in his emotion. And, and that's. And that's what he wants.

Jimmy: And here's like. Okay, one of the, like the things that is supposed to be very important is the eyes have to be like, on the correct plane of the head. But this, obviously not, because not only are these on the same side of the head, they're not even angled the way they would be if they were actually on the side. You know what I mean? Like they would have, I mean, 60 degrees.

Harold: I mean, put your, put your, put your finger over the, the right eye and, and eyebrow.

Jimmy: Uh-huh.

Harold: And that could just be a profile.

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: In the eyes looking ahead. Yeah. And it's just totally different once he adds that extra eye to the right.

Michael: The Picasso character, 

Jimmy: it's in his blue period.

Liz: All right.

Jimmy: We couldn't get Gatsby in, but we got Picasso in. That's something.

Michael: That panel bugs me. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. Is it a mistake? I mean, he could have put. He could put one ear on the other side of the head and it would look right.

Jimmy: Yeah, but I don't think it would look as good.

Harold: Do you think it has an. Why would he do that emotionally? Why would he twist one side to one side?

Michael: I don't know what you're talking about. The eye is the joke works just as good with. If that was a side view of the head.

Harold: I kind of disagree on that. and it is hard to put into words why I feel that way, but it's almost like his mind has been twisted by how did this happen? And it's. And it's represented visually somehow. I don't know. It does work for me. And it is hard to put into words why I think, let me.

Jimmy: Ask you guys this. Compare that the second to last panel to the second to the left panel on tier two.

Harold: Right.

Jimmy: Which one of those do you think is more effective? Or is there a difference? Do you have a.

Michael: Well, that one, the one you just mentioned is. I don't see any problems with.

Liz: It could have worked for the second to last panel.

Michael: Yeah.

Jimmy: Well, I think he's trying to almost duplicate the head space, but kind of getting it wrong. But I agree, I like the really abstract next to last one, but I would never do it. I would race. Would just be a mess by the time I got done.

Michael: well, look, it's. I mean, you place the ear on the other side like in that second panel and that works.

Harold: Yeah. And the one thing that would keep it from, like if you took your hand and just her finger and just covered the right eye and eyebrow. The one thing that he doesn't do is he doesn't have the smooth arc on the back of the head. He's giving it this angle, almost like a Linus kind of head, that suggests it's facing the same direction as the eyes are. I mean, it's this genius. It is a genius bit of Picasso stuff going on. But the emotion of the two drawings, I mean, that first one you mentioned, Jimmy.

Jimmy: Uh-huh.

Harold: It's a really good drawing. And it's also not a typical drawing of Snoopy. And I think it works for his being thoughtful, but also kind of out of sorts. Uh-huh. But that second to last panel, based on him being absolutely.

Jimmy: He surprised. Yeah. The, ears are indicated. The reason the ears are that way is good. They're indicating part of the emotion. Right. He's down in the second tier because he's hungry. In the last tier, he's surprised because how. How did Charlie Brown know this?

Harold: Yeah, yeah. I think both of them work. But I agree that that second to last one is. Is massive. Is crazy wonky.

Liz: It shows more surprise to have both ears on the same side.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. And I do like the color in this one. Even Charlie Brown's. I like his patchwork quilt.

Harold: Yeah, I love that. Love the patchwork quilt.

Jimmy: Looks very cozy, huh?

Jimmy: All right, well, you know what? All this talk about Snoopy being hungry has made me a little peckish. So how about I'm going to go and get a nice big bowl of dog food and then, we'll come back, answer the mail or something like that and do more strips.

Harold: Sounds great.

Liz: Sounds good.

Harold: Alpo beef chunks, dinner there's no better dog food in the world.

Jimmy: No better dog food. 

SWOOSH

And we're back. Hey, Liz, we're hanging out in the mailbox. Do we got anything?

Liz: We do. We heard from a bunch of people. Rob Zverina wrote to make sure that we saw the Library of America article about the Peanuts 75th anniversary, and it has some interesting. Including their book, the Peanuts writers and cartoonists on Charlie Brown, Snoopy and the Gang, and the Meaning of Life.

Jimmy: That's cool.

Harold: Cool. That is a good book. The Peanuts Papers. If you guys have not heard of that one, it is a bunch of essays by some pretty amazing people who have thought a lot about Peanuts from a lot of different perspectives. I, picked it up at the museum shop for the Society of Illustrators in Manhattan, and it's a really good read and very thought provoking. If you like this podcast, I think you're gonna like the Peanuts Papers.

Liz: And I will link to the link he sent. I will put that in social media because it has some links to some YouTube videos with people talking about Peanuts that, I think our listeners would really like.

Harold: Cool. Thank you.

Jimmy: Awesome.

Liz: And John Merullo sent us his 10 strips back when we were talking about our top 10. And there was definitely some overlap, but he also had some very interesting suggestions. He also responded to Harold's question from our last Snoopy episode, and he writes, I don't know that any Peanuts character would be the greatest character in Western literature, but I would say that it has the four greatest comic strip characters ever in order of first appearance. Charlie Brown, Snoopy, Lucy, and Linus. I would be hesitant to say any of them are above the other in this respect because the four of them formed the core of the ensemble for nearly the entire run. I will add that it is true that Linus appeared less in later years, but he had cemented his presence. Ultimately, every major character in Peanuts is at least part defined by their relationship to another character. Even Peppermint Patty, who stood on her own so well, was partly defined by her complicated relationship with Charlie Brown. The sole exception there is Charlie Brown himself. Ultimately, Snoopy is Charlie Brown's dog in an existential sense more than Charlie Brown is Snoopy's owner.

Jimmy: that's a great point. That's really interesting that Charlie Brown sort of stands alone, which makes sense since he's sort of the hub.

Harold: Yeah, well, thank you for that, John. That's super thoughtful. And I like where you're coming from. And, okay, so you have Western literature. Well, that's all it's all debatable, right?

Jimmy: Well, you know what? I actually, I was listening to a Ulysses podcast the other day, and they were talking about how Joyce wanted the character, Bloom, the character in Ulysses, to be the complete man, you know, the one person, the one literary character that really showed a complete human being. And in the podcast, they're like, and nobody's done better since. Maggie in Love and Rockets is actually probably the greatest comic character of all time in a literary sense, because it's a real life in real time. And I don't think anything has touched that, you know?

Michael: Yeah, but it was only one day. I mean, come on.

Jimmy: Yeah, come on. How much can you show in one day, what a hack that guy was?

Liz: And, super listener Deb Perry responded to Jimmy's commentary on Snoopy Come Home with: Snoopy Come Home is a fun movie, but if you followed Peanuts in the newspaper every day, you just knew that Snoopy wasn't going to leave. 

Jimmy: You would if you were 5.

Liz: That would have tanked the whole franchise. You can get rid of Shermy or Patty or Violet. No one would care. (Except Michael), but not Snoopy. The music was a strange choice, Like Schulz was trying to make something more in line with a Disney feature. The Sherman Brothers wrote lots of music for Disney films, yet it feels off brand here. As much as I like the animated Peanuts shows and films, I think they lose something in the translation from a comic to an animated cartoon. By the time of this film, the shows were getting a lot more cartoony and less Schulzy. The animation is pretty lively for limited TV budgets, yet when the characters move, they pull away from Schulz's meticulously minimalist style. All those familiar poses and expressions just become in between drawings as part of something that is constantly moving. That said, I can't hear Vince Guaraldi's music without seeing those walk cycles in my head.

Harold: Yeah, this was a genuine challenge to animate Peanuts. And hats off to Bill Melendez, for being the kind of guy who was. He didn't try to put his ego in front of it and put a massive stamp. He was kind of a chameleon when it came to animating other people's work. He was trying to make something that was not designed to move in animation look like it was true to the original. And Peanuts is particularly hard. We've talked about this before, how Snoopy is different in every pose. How do you morph from these little tiny legs to a big leg to small stomach to a big stomach when he's going Lying down, sitting, walking, running, jumping, dancing. It is not easy because Schulz only drew him in X number of poses. And the animators are forced, you know, to draw him in way more poses, at least if only like you're saying in the in betweens to get to the next pose. It is not easy. And particularly that CG film they did. How do you do Peanuts as CG.

Jimmy: And 2D with 3D software?

Harold: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think they did a very good job, given the, what some hard choices that they had to make. And I think they made some pretty wise ones. But yeah, it's, it's tough. Peanuts is specifically tough because it's so minimalist and, and yet it has to move. And Schulz didn't make it move. Somebody had to put that stamp on top of his work. And I think that's why some people like Michael maybe, you know, doesn't want, don't want to mess with it because it's, it's not Schulz. Right. It's Schulz Plus. and maybe you don't want to deal with Schulz. Why, why have the plus when you got, you know, 17,897 Schulz, you know.

Jimmy: yeah, and I will say, I will say this. I think we're lucky that it got that Schulz ended up with Bill Melendez, because when you think of when something becomes a. Goes from being a work of art to being a pop culture franchise or whatever, most likely, the artist's original vision is going to be trampled. And I really think, you know, those guys just tried to translate his vision as much as possible.

Harold: And some very odd choices. Yeah. That only exists in, in the Peanuts shows. Like how that they'll just do a four panel strip after a while. Yeah. And they'll leave it as a four panel strip and then they'll just dissolve into the next strip. Yep. It's like, forget it. You know, we're not going to try.

Jimmy: You know, to cut the iconic voice of the adults to show there's no adults. A lot of people would have just put adult voices in and, you know, who cares? But just to let every-- our listeners know what Debbie's talking about here, I got a text from a listener, Ryan, who was on a date and said they were watching unpack or what was it called Snoopy Come Home. And what do I think about the strange color of the doghouse? Because it was really pop, like psychedelically colored. So I had nothing to do, so I popped it on and just did a commentary. I just sat watch along with me and it was a lot of fun. I'm going to do it again.

Liz: Jimmy did them for our Patreon listeners.

Jimmy: Yeah. So if you want to cough up a couple bucks, a cool finski, you can have that.

Harold: And I will say there are some pieces of animation that, I absolutely love. Let's say the Christmas special, some of Snoopy dancing. You know, it's in the strip, and we see it represented here, but there's some beautiful, beautiful animation of Snoopy that I'll never forget that does kind of fill in the gaps between the panels in a way that I find really satisfying. I don't know if it was Bill Littlejohn or who was animating. They had some really amazing, like, veteran animators working on that in 65 who'd been working in theatrical cartoons, you know, dating back years, and, and you see it in certain spots of that special where there's just something that enhances if you have to bring it to life, you know, that is an amazing way to bring it to life. And I, I, I love seeing Peanuts come to life in, in certain aspects that, just Schulz never got to do. And somebody was a wonderful extension of his creativity in those specials.

Liz: And longtime, listener Sarah Wilson writes. Hey, Liz and the Gang. It's your old pal Sarah, currently hanging out in St. Paul, Minnesota, and I have a request/ proposal for you all. I noticed as I was wrapping up the Great Peanuts reread how many Gatsby references there are in the last few years. I'm not sure what put it back on Schulz's radar, but then again, he and Scott Fitzgerald were both sons of St. Paul.

Jimmy: Yep.

Liz: Saint Paul remembers both proudly. So the request slash proposal. On the more modest end, how about an episode on the Gatsby strips in Peanuts with discussion of the two St. Paul artists who struck gold in the American artistic universe? And on the more expansive end, how about hosting the Great Gatsby reread? See what I did there? Casting all the Gatsby characters as Peanuts characters. And she offers to help if we want to do all of that.

Jimmy: I don't think. I think I'm the only one that likes that book of everybody on this show, right?

Michael: I'm not a fan.

Harold: I'm not a fan.

Jimmy: Yeah, I love it. So it'll just be me and you, Sarah.

Harold: Sorry, Sarah. Read it in college. You know, it's always the. When you have to read a book in school. Oh, yeah. So often it just kind of kills it for you. I don't know if that's Why? I don't know.

Liz: Sigh. And, we got a five star review on Apple Podcasts from a listener whose handle is Kong Husker, who writes Great show. Just discovered this podcast. The guys do a tremendous job at breaking the strips down and having a peaceful, relaxing atmosphere during the conversation. Keep it up, you blockheads.

Jimmy: All right.

Harold: Thank you. Thank you, Kong Husker.

Liz: I love the fact that people seem to think we're peaceful. More than two people have said that.

Jimmy: Yeah, it's a good. Well, you know, we're just hanging out, talking about comics.

Harold: Yeah. And something we all love. it's a nice place to be. I'm happy to show up here every time just to settle in and enjoy something we all love.

Jimmy: Now, moments after we finish recording, we do go out and rumble. But we find other podcasts, talking about comic books and take care of business.

Harold: We're gonna mess with Nancy tonight.

Liz: so that's it for the mail. Do you have anything from the hotline?

Jimmy: Oh, my gosh. We got two calls. We got one from Marcia. Super listener, Marcia. And what she says is this.

Marcia: Hello, Wonderful unpacking Peanuts people.

This is Marcia Hepps, longtime listener, one time, Snoopy.

And I've been thinking since you've been doing this wonderful, intensely beautiful look into Snoopy. When you asked me, when I played Snoopy, where I got my inspiration from, I honestly looked at all of the strips that the lines came from to see what Schulz wanted to tell me. There was a lot there.

I would personally love to do a Deep dive on youn're a Good Man Charlie Brown. Anyway, just thought, I'd warm up the old hotline, and be a good cheer.

Liz: And that inspired me to reach out to our listeners. Cause I know that more than one of them have told me that they played parts in you're a Good Man Charlie Brown when they were in school. And, so I put on social media and I want to put out to our listeners, who else has been a character in youn're a Good Man Charlie Brown at some point in their life. I'd love to know where. And maybe we can at some point do something with that.

Harold: Well, that would be kind of interesting. Yeah. Especially you have to kind of get into that character if you're performing it. And you have to learn the lines and really feel like, okay, method acting. Snoopy or Linus or whatever. What people got out of that, you know, they had a new appreciation for the characters by having to live with them and become them.

Jimmy: I do think that we could probably do an episode or two, even on your Good man Charlie Brown, Much like we did the Christmas special. Finding strips that were adapted or have been adapted over the years, that could be a lot of fun. And it's a great way to do extra comic strip Peanuts, material without having to make Michael sit through a TV show or something. You know what I mean?

Liz: And also the way that it changed over the years, because the version that I was in is completely different from the one that's currently. I mean, that really. One of the people that wrote on social media was in it in 2024, which was like 55 years after I was in it.

Harold: Well, who was the creative force behind that musical?

Liz: Clark Gesner was the person who put it together, and he came to one of my performances.

Jimmy: That's so awesome.

Harold: Yeah.

Liz: But I'm sure that different people have made it what it is today. So he created it in the 60s, and I don't know the history of what happened since then. Anything else on the hotline?

Jimmy: Yep. We also heard from Andrew Caddell.

Andrew: Hey, guys. my name is Andrew Caddell. I'm a longtime listener of the show. Ah, I just thought I'd give you guys a call. I went to Cooperstown, New York, last month to visit the Baseball hall of Fame. And as I was driving, I drove past the Fenimore Cooper Art Museum. And, they had a big banner outside the museum and the big picture of Calvin and Hobbes. And I couldn't believe if I parked them in my car and I went inside and on the second floor, it just opened. It's a new exhibit called Exploring Calvin and Hobbes. And it's pretty amazing. They have over, I would say, maybe, maybe 50 originals, from Bill Watterson. They have the first one, and they also have the, last comic strip in, 1995. And I think it's the 30th anniversary of the comic strip ending. So that's why they have the exhibit. But anyway, if you go. If you're in Cooperstown, New York, or in the upstate New York area, please go. It's fantastic exhibition, with all these originals. And so, yeah, it's pretty amazing to see, like, the white out and everything that Watterson uses and whatnot. But anyway, just go ahead and tell you guys that. So, anyway, keep up the good work and, talk to you soon. All right, Take care. Be of good cheer. Bye. Bye.

Harold: So I have a question because of Charlie Brown, and is he also in that. In the exhibit somehow? Is Charlie Brown represented. I have to go to Cooperstown. I live in New York. That sounds like. I mean, to see Watterson original art. I've never seen that in person. That would be cool. Thank you for telling us about that.

Jimmy: Yeah, very cool. And we also heard from Captain Billy. Okay, now this is extremely important. I actually agree with Captain Billy on this one, guys. We dropped the ball.

Liz: What did we do?

Jimmy:. Hi. Captain Billy here re the Mailbag episode. You guys dropped the ball, you blockheads. And the question he wants answered. What costume did Liz wear when she was on Let's Make a Deal? How did we not ask that?

Michael: Right.

Liz: Oh, my. Okay, so when we went there, we waited in line for a good long time, and everybody was in strange costumes. My sister wore a hula outfit and she looked really good. And her husband was a fisherman. And I, who was visiting in LA at the time, who didn't have any, didn't have access to much in the way of costumes, wore her cap and gown from graduation and a Harpo Marx wig. no, it was not cool. So we waited in line, and the people in charge said, we are only going to pick the people who behave themselves. And so we want you to stand here quietly. And so I followed the rules and I stood there quietly. And the people who said, pick me. Pick me, pick me, Monty they all got on the show.

Harold: so they want rule breakers is what they want.

Liz: Yeah, they really did. And so her husband and I got seats in the nosebleed section, and Hilary, my sister, who was wearing the hula girl outfit, was in the first row of the audience.

Harold: did she say, pick me, pick me, or was she also.

Liz: No, she just looked really good in the hula outfit.

Jimmy:. Didn't matter.

Harold: She was getting on the front row.

Liz: Yeah. So we were not on the trading floor, but thank you, Captain Billy, for asking.

Jimmy: And we also heard from Shaylee Robson, who did the Peanuts personality quiz with us, and she got Charlie Brown. So it's not a hundred percent weighted towards Marcie like we suggested, but you.

Liz: Were a Charlie Brown too, weren't you?

Jimmy: That's Lucy.

Liz: Oh, you were Lucy.

Jimmy: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Michael: Okay.

Liz: All right. We have. We almost have a strip.

Harold: Yep. Yeah.

Jimmy: And, that's it. But thanks to everybody for writing. If you want to get in touch with us, you can write us, @unpackingpeanutsmail.com or you can give us a call on our hotline or text the hotline, 717-219-4162. And remember, when I don't hear, I worry. So please reach out to us. All right, so what do you think? Should we actually talk about some comic strips? Finally?

Liz: Okay.

Harold: All right.

September 19th, 1963. Okay, this is a, great one. This. Charlie Brown's just sitting there, and Snoopy's lying on the ottoman of Charlie Brown's chair, and Charlie Brown says, how would you like to go for a walk, Snoopy? And then Snoopy's just dancing wildly, and Charlie Brown says, ha, I knew you would. All dogs like to go for walks. And Snoopy's doing his complete happy dance. And then we see in the last panel, Charlie Brown pushing a very delighted Snoopy in what I assume is Sally's baby stroller. And Charlie Brown saying, this isn't exactly what I had in mind. 

Jimmy: you know, this is another. Is Snoopy a dog? Is he father figure? Is he a baby? He can be all these different things. You always Snoopy.

Michael: But, you know, up until this point, except for some imitations, all his fantasies were animals.

Jimmy: Uh-huh.

Michael: And I think the pilot, the World War I flying ace, was the start of him wanting to be a person. And then in the future, you didn't do animals very much. It was, you know.

Jimmy: Yeah, they would just be callbacks.

Michael: Check out clerical collar. Yeah. So here, this is kind of an in between phase where he wants to be a baby.

Jimmy: Yeah. That's weird. That is weird. because he looks so happy.

Liz: That last panel, when I first read it, I thought that it was Snoopy who was saying, this isn't exactly what I had in mind.

Jimmy: That would have been funny, too, actually. and I have to say, this is a shout out to my dear neighbor Leanna and Kyle Waldron, who walk their dog Mia Wallace in a stroller. Mia's getting up there, so she needs. She needs a little extra help.

Harold: Yeah. I love how Schulz sets up this gag with the first panel where Snoopy's looking very much like a dog.

Jimmy: Yes. Very much.

Harold: On the ottoman of the chair where Charlie Brown's still reading that same book.

Jimmy: I love that boy. That dancing Snoopy in panel three, that could be, like, the dancing Snoopy.

Harold: You can't go wrong with dancing Snoopy.

Jimmy: Cannot.

Harold: He's so tall, too. He's almost as tall as Charlie Brown.

Jimmy: Yeah, he's giant. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's also supposed to be a little perspective, too, though, right? He's in front of Charlie Brown a little bit.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: And here's the last one I picked for this week's show. 

September 12, 1997 Snoopy's Atop the dog house, and this time he's typing away on his Smith Corona. And he types as she said goodbye and ran up the steps. He knew he would never see her again. He was heartbroken. Snoopy continues to type oh, well, he thought, I still have my dog. And in the last panel, Snoopy types. Little did he know his dog had been planning to leave him.

Harold: Oh.

Jimmy: I wonder if this is a, Romana clef of Snoopy. He's planning to leave Charlie Brown. That just made me laugh. I just thought that was, you know, one of the other things that we've. We've. We did a whole episode about, which is why I didn't really include any specifically, but we did a whole episode about all Snoopy's Personas. And, you know, if we are, trying to understand Snoopy, one of the big things has to be all the different Personas. And I really, really like the writer. And I love the fact that someone was able to put all the writer strips together to make it seem like it's one actual big book. That's an amazing, amazing thing.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: Now, of those, since we were not covering the, the Personas and leaving aside the, the animal imitations, do you guys have a favorite of the Snoopy Personas or one that you like slightly more?

Michael: The human Personas, you mean? Well, I mean, I probably wouldn't have noticed it, but your love for the grocery clerk made me appreciate.

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: That was the very first one that came to my mind was the grocery clerk.

Jimmy: Oh, well, then my life is complete. Everybody loves the grocery store.

Harold: Do some heavy reading tonight, eh?

Liz: I. I think I've got to go for Joe Cool.

Jimmy: Joe Cool.

Harold: Number two for me. Joe Cool.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. It's funny, I was watching, you know those. They have all those, like, secret channels behind the main channel on TV now that just shows has, like, old stuff. They have like a Saturday Night Live channel. And, they were doing. They. They were showing one from just a couple years ago, maybe even just last year, and it was them doing the Christmas special, and Keenan Thompson was playing Snoopy, right? And like, the shot goes to Keenan playing Snoopy, and the crowd cheers because everyone likes Snoopy. Then they cut away, and when they come back, Snoopy's Joe Cool. And the crowd goes nuts. And I thought, that's amazing because this is a comic strip. You know what I mean? It's a Persona of a comic strip character that was done in 50 years previous to this. Right. Joe Cool from late 60s, early 70s and stuff like that. And yet as soon as they put those shades on them, the crowd went crazy because everybody loved it.

Harold: Now, did, did, did it have a thing on the sweatshirt said Joe Cool, or did they have to know?

Jimmy: That would have been a little too much to get in between the cuts, I think. You know what I mean? He had no sweatshirt. You're just in the Snoopy outfit. But it was really adorable. 

So I think we have. We've certainly talked a lot today, and that, that's always one of my goals, is to at least fill up the time for you. All you people out there, if you want to continue this conversation, there's a couple different ways you can do it. First thing you could do, of course, is you go over to unpackingpeanuts.com and you sign up for the Great Peanuts Reread. Now, you get one email a month that will tell you, just what we're going to be covering. And you will be able to then read ahead. If you want to follow with us, you can also call us on our Hotline. We are 717-219-4162. And of course, you can find us on social media. We are there. What are we, Liz?

Liz: We are unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads and unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, blue sky, and YouTube.

Jimmy: There you go. All right, so if you want to keep this conversation going, hit some of those links. Remember, when I don't hear from you, I worry. So with all that said.

Harold: Well, hold on, hold on. I got it. I got it.

Liz: Oh. Oh, yes.

Jimmy: Oh, wait. I have other stuff, too. Yeah, sorry.

Liz: Where's Harold?

Harold: Where's Harold? Yeah, well, I'm wearing a little knit cap and some red and white striped shirts. On December 12, I am kicking off the presentations at the It's a Wonderful Life festival in Seneca Falls, New York, which I highly recommend for anybody who loves that, that movie. From 11:15 on Friday, December 12th, I will be talking about how Frank Capra came to make It's a Wonderful Life. And then on Saturday, the very next day, I am down in Ocean City, Maryland, for two days, for their Comic Con. I'm an invited guest at that, which is kind of a rarity. Usually I'm just an interloper. And then it's more punk rock fun at the Philly Punk Rock Flea Market, December 19th, 20th and 21st. So if you're in that area, please stop by and look at all of the punk rock wares and stop and say, hi.

Jimmy: Awesome. Hey. And I would just like to ask if anyone out there if you're interested. Right now there are, you can pre order the first two Amelia Rules books with brand new stories from good old Simon and Schuster and that would be great if you could pre order those books .

Liz: and we'll put the link in the show notes.

Jimmy: Awesome. Thank you. All right, so with all that said from Michael, Harold and Liz, this is Jimmy saying, be of good cheers.

L&M&H Yes. Be of good cheer.

VO: Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner. Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukrala Clark. For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.

Jimmy: Touch the dog. Good grief.