Understanding Snoopy #5: When Woodstock Is Happy, I'm Happy

Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. This is Unpacking Peanuts. Today we are doing the fifth episode of our ongoing look at. At the greatest comic strip character of all time, Snoopy. I'm going to be your host for these proceedings. My name is Jimmy Gownley. I'm also a cartoonist, and you can find all my work right now over there on Gville Comics on Substack. Joining me, as always, are my pals, co hosts and fellow cartoonists, Michael Cohen.

Michael: Say hey.

Jimmy: And Harold Buchholz.

Harold: Hello.

Jimmy: And keeping us on the straight and narrow, producer and editor Liz Sumner.

Liz: Howdy.

Jimmy: So, guys, we're, talking about Snoopy today. Our understanding Snoopy season. But before that, I want to talk about, something that's. That's annoying me. I got a beef as the kids-- No, I got beef. That's what it is.

Harold: You've got.

Jimmy: I got beef where. So, actually, I'm not. I don't eat beef anymore. But yeah, So a few weeks ago, Michael was talking to me about, he had done a performance on a guitar, an electric guitar that was not his beloved Strat. And it was, it was a difficult thing. And I thought, well, sure, because Michael had a beautiful Stratocaster that is like a tool, an amazing tool, that was designed in, like, 1954. And in 2020 or 2254, if someone picked that tool up, that beautiful Stratocaster guitar, they could play it and it would be perfect and they could devote their lives to it. Right. 

Harold and I had recently been at a Peanuts 75th anniversary show in good old Lancaster Penns. And it was so fun. But when we showed the art on, our little slide presentation for our panel, a lot of people and we, we, we focused on the. The fact that Schulz was doing everything with one tool. Just this, you know, the famous radio 914 Pen. A lot of people didn't think about that. They weren't aware that, oh, my God, he had spent at least the people at the show then. These are hardcore Peanuts fans. But they had never considered that he had used one tool that was invented whenever a, dip pen was invented. And it lasted him his whole career. Right.

Harold: Well, not that, not the one tool he had to replace them.

Jimmy: Right.

Harold: They did wear out. We're not saying these things.

Jimmy: The design of the simple. He. His whole artistic career was mastering the 914 radio nib. Yeah, my Question is this. Why do I have to subscribe to Clip Studio or any kind of digital thing? Do you think that, like, there is something really annoying to me about the number of, choices and the constant upgrading of everything to make comics when we don't need 99.9% of them?

Harold: Well, okay, let me take that back to you, because you were holding out, right? You were holding out and doing it with your. What nib were you. You were using a couple different physical tools on Bristol 

Jimmy:  primarily that zebra brush. 

Harold: Yeah, yeah. And so you didn't have to switch over to Clip Studio. What made you do it? And do you still consider it a plus?

Jimmy: Oh, I. Well, I did. I had to switch over because I wanted to color on my iPad. And primarily I still only use it as a coloring tool. And I do my Cub Scout strip entirely digitally because I want to keep up with it and learn it. And like, in that particular instance, using a font is part of the job description, so I had to have a version. I'm not picking on Clip Studio. I think Clip Studio is an amazing program, but I'm picking on this subscription model of everything is the latest and the greatest and updated, but it all brings you further and further away from a pure art.

Harold: Okay, well, I think that's what a lot of us are dealing with right now, especially with AI coming in. Everyone's deciding how much do I want to be something that exists outside of the electronic world and how much do I want to just go into that space? Because it makes things easier on the whole. Because it does make things easier on the whole, obviously.

Jimmy: Oh, for sure it does.

Harold: There's no question it's faster. But we do see this backlash against this. You know, they're saying that Gen Z in particular, you know, they were digital natives from birth, and they. They're like, you know, I don't want this to be my whole life.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Harold: And. And I think we are seeing that certain people value the. The thing that was done by hand without the use of bits and bytes. And, I think that's something that. Well, you talked about the benefits of creating where you physically have a page representing a book that many, many people have seen reproduced, that might want to own a page.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah.

Harold: That was physical and. And I. The NFT thing doesn't really work of people.

Jimmy: Yeah, I don't think that, I think people caught on to that pretty quick.

Harold: Yeah, I guess there's still some people in that realm, but. And maybe a lot of them. I just. It just isn't on the news. But in any case, you know, I feel like, you know, you, you added value to creating a book because you, if you went up with 200 pages of physical art, as hard as it was to do it, that now has value alongside the reproduction capability. Right. so yeah, it's, it's interesting for me it I want to just be able to create more with the time that I have and I get the control that I want and I get consistency with, with E stuff but you know, it's.

Jimmy: Well, I'm really complaining mostly about the subscription fee. Like.

Harold: Well, yeah, that, that is a, you know, that was a brilliant. I think Adobe was really the first one to do that in our space and they were like, wait a second, we can get, you know, we used to sell them the thing once some people were still using Photoshop 2, you know, or whatever.

Jimmy: I could still be using Photoshop 2.5 or whatever it was.

Harold: Yeah. And that's, and that's an option as long as you've got a computer that can somehow figure out that old software.

Liz: My favorite apps offer both. They either a subscription model or one at a time.and own it and not get the upgrades until you can't stand it anymore. So it's only the evil companies who only offer subscription models.

Harold: Well, Clip Studio does have a still a physical, doesn't it? Or maybe did it just recently drop it because you could buy like a, a version that you could download and it was yours. I, I don't know if you get all the features.

Jimmy: as far as I knew since I've been using it, it's been subscription only, I think. But I could be wrong and again, I'm not, I'm not sure.

Harold: Right, right, right. It's not just, just that. But yeah, as a business model it works, it works incredibly well to get somebody to pay you a guaranteed amount of money in perpetuity for whatever you do.

Michael: And I think the real solution here is that what we're buying is way beyond what we need.

Harold: Yeah.

Michael: Now if they had a stripped down drawing.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Michael: Program which is all I use.

Jimmy: Right. Me too.

Michael: Cheaper. I think that would make sense because I'm never going to use the animation stuff or architectural drawings or painting.

Jimmy: Right.

Michael: Yeah. I just want the basic tools and yeah, they could easily make that a separate package.

Harold: Yes. And you know, it just comes down to what makes them the most money. And you know, I think about cable. I mean cable seems to me that I can think of the very first thing that we would subscribe to 260 channels and we watch two.

Jimmy: Right. Well, I mean, that was really just my thing. And just to bring it back to the cartoonist and the art thing, you know, I think part, a huge part of the Schulz appeal as an artist is how he mastered very, very simple tools and stuck with it and, and force them to go whatever direction he was going and also work with whatever physical limitations he had in just real life tactilely right there. And I think, you know, when you have a million options, I think the temptation, and I'm partly speaking this because I did it in Amelia lots of times, oh, I'll see all the things I can do. And I don't know if it necessarily helps you in the long term because a lot of those effects, they like go away or they're updated or the change or they're so tied to their time.

Harold: Yes, that's true. That's true. And for the record, you can buy a one time purchase of Clip Studio Paint. What? But here's the catch. It's on Windows and Mac Os. Ah. see, there you go. If you, if you're, if you want that portability of the iPad, you're paying that subscription.

Jimmy: And that's the whole point for me is drawing and coloring on the iPad.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: All right, well, that's all I had to say. We should probably talk about comic strips now and Snoopy.

Harold: Snoopy.

Jimmy: All right, so, as we know, we have been discussing our pal Snoopy, for the last few episodes of the season, interrupted here and there by some fabulous guests. So we had, a listener write in and say they really wanted us to focus on some aspects of Snoopy with Woodstock. And so that's what we're going to do today. We're going to talk about Snoopy and Woodstock together as a comedy team and you know, a real feature of the strip. 

Harold, what do you think about Snoopy and Woodstock? I want both of your takes, especially then Michael, because Woodstock was basically a new character for you with this reread.

Harold: Snoopy and Woodstock, I think are, a great combination because we had not had Snoopy in this big brother sometimes parental role before, and it brought out a whole aspect of him that he didn't have before. Now, maybe the version that maybe Michael doesn't like so much because, you know, Snoopy the rebel is hard to be a rebel when he's got little Woodstock to look after, but it does bring out an aspect of him. 

And certainly we see on the merchandise side of things. You know what people respond to this couple. I saw so many Snoopy and Woodstock sweatshirts with Christmas themes walking by at the Turning Stone Christmas and crafts event this past weekend in Verona, New York. It was crazy. There. There were, you know, the famous hugging thing of Snoopy with. With Woodstock. That drawing that they've used so many times with. With little Christmas lights strung all around them. There were multiple versions of it, but spark to these characters. 

I was just rereading Patrick McDonnell's introduction to that wonderful, new essential Peanuts book that we interviewed Mark Evanier about. And one of the things that was quoted by McDonnell is that Schulz said is he says he thought that warmth was incredibly important in characters, and he strived to put warmth into his characters. And I definitely feel that that that side of Snoopy that includes Woodstock is. Is something that's incredibly meaningful to them. It is this thing of warmth, and it is this thing of, you know, you got a bigger character and a smaller character. The big character's looking out after that smaller character. It really is special. And I do have to add, and it's not generic. It's. You know, it's. It's not. It has tremendous personality. These characters are so rich.

Liz: And Woodstock is small, but he's not, like, childlike. I mean, sometimes he is innocent, but he is also fierce and has his own way of going about in the world. It's not like he's a baby.

Jimmy: Right?

Harold: You're right. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Woodstock has surprising moments all through the strip, even into the late 90s, you know, when Woodstock gets angry or Woodstock gets revenge, or, you know, I was like, wow, okay. That's the side of Woodstock I kind of forgot was there, but it's there.

Jimmy: Woodstock's Revenge would be an amazing graphic novel. Could you imagine?

Harold: Yeah, just wait. Wait till 95 years after the copyrights run out and what people are gonna do with that.

Jimmy: Oh, yeah. How they make everything a horror movie.

Harold: Yeah, right. It's always a horror movie.

Jimmy: Now, Michael, what about you? I know you were drawn to his tininess and his little. His pathetic ness or whatever you would refer to it.

Michael: Well, I. I came in. I mean, I missed most of the Woodstock story because I stopped reading Peanuts roughly the same time I went off to college, and there was no longer a daily newspaper delivered to the house. So, my initial impression, because this only would be up till, like, 1970, was it was something that I saw as, like, the strip not quite hitting its peak anymore, starting to go down. Stuff I didn't like. You know, the red baron and I also lumped in Woodstock is kind of, okay, that's when it is starting to get a little more cute and warm and heartwarming. 

Then we started, you know, when we got to 1970 and I was reading all new strips from there on. Yeah, I mean, it was totally won over again. I realized clearly one of the great characters of all time. But I admired Peanuts through the 50s and 60s because I saw it as subversive in a way that is odd considering it's the most popular comic strip. But it also, I saw it as an antidote, you know, over sweetness and in TV shows, especially on kids. So seeing, okay, a cute little bird buddy I saw as okay, that's heading towards the sweetness, which I didn't want to see in this strip. But I realized that Woodstock is more of a complex character and he is kind of a loser in the same way Charlie Brown is.

Michael: And I mean, he can't do anything and he's always falling and smashing his head. So whenever he tries anything, flying upside down, he tries anything, he fails, which is funny. And plus this mysterious power of Schulz's little drawings on this tiny character are, ah, very emotional. And you know, when Woodstock's happy, for some reason, I kind of feel like I'm happy.

Jimmy: Yeah, that's amazing.

Michael: Yeah, it is amazing. I can't explain that.

Jimmy: Yeah, you're right. I mean, that's kind of what I wanted to say about the drawing is just, I think just as a pure cartoon cartoonist exercise, I think Woodstock is Schulz's masterpiece because he takes up so little space in the panel. I mean, just he doesn't talk, he just has those hash marks, which those alone are genius. I just think as it works best in the comic strip, and the comic strip version of Woodstock, only Schulz could have come up with. And I really do like it. The other thing I do kind of want to say just about, you know, the Anarchy Snoopy versus, you know, the later Snoopy. One of the things I think is interesting about the comic strip form is that none of them are really past like, do you know what I mean? Like you could pick up a bunch of Snoopy and Woodstock from the 80s and then read a bunch of banana nose Snoopies. And it all. Because it's all this timeless world anyway. It doesn't feel like one ever went away and was replaced to the other by the other. For me, it feels like it just depends where I want to dip in or out. Yeah, of course not if you're reading everyone in order, but, you know, just on a day to day basis.

Harold: Yeah, that, that all of it still speaks to people. It's not like there was this period where what he was making was so odd or different or subpar that, that people don't want to remember it or they go, well, that, you know, that's true for many, many strips. You know, like, oh, gosh, yeah, there's 30 years of this strip. We can just, you know, just because the person, whatever they were doing, they're just doing the same thing, but not as well. But he'll always seem to be adding something. There were always surprises and, you know, based on our personalities, we might like one more than another. I think we do because we care so much about these characters to his credit. But, you know, it's funny when Michael's saying, you know, and I, totally get what you're saying. You know, it's like, well, there was this smart, subversive element to the simplicity of the strip. And, And I'm coming at it from like, oh, to me it's. I wouldn't use the term subversive, but I would say it's almost countercultural that he had this smart sweetness to his work, if that makes any sense, that there was. That there's something behind innocence that is actually quite deep, which is often missed in the artwork when people are making stuff for kids. And, you know, it's feels like it's kind of pablum.

Jimmy: Yeah, exactly.

Harold: And it's not. It's not attached to reality. And I think one of the beautiful things that Schulz does is he kind of haunts us with the. Here's this adult making what we know can be very sophisticated, simple haiku strips. And he's adding the innocence in there and he's saying there's. There's depth here. You know, you get that sense. And other artists don't do it with that topic. And I think that's why people resonate with it because they were, they were touched more, much more deeply by him going to places that are usually considered kiddie fare that don't have that depth.

Jimmy: Well, you know, if I could go back to one of my well beaten hobby horses, Michael Stipe calls Automatic for the People, their punk rock record. And it's of course, torch songs and ballads. And that's the one with Everybody Hurts on.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: because it was the most poor punk rock thing to do in that moment in 1992 where everything was loud and whatever the Straight Story by David Lynch could be seen as like a punk rock moment or subversive moment, because it's against the prevailing culture of the time. A G movie, you know.

Harold: Yeah, no, that's, I think that's absolutely true. And I respect them both for, for going there and, and standing behind that work. It's like, oh no, they're not going to sell out. Certainly Straight Story was not a sellout. It's like, no, but, but he changed the tone and he did something different that was on his heart. And that's amazing. I mean, I've told about, you know, I'm going to the punk rock flea market thing this Christmas and I did something earlier this year and I thought, okay, I'm going to be selling Mystery Science Theater stuff to this group. But you, know, I was like, there was nothing more punk rock for me than to have Sweetest Beasts at the punk rock flea market. And it was incredibly popular. People totally connected to those characters in that environment because it was, it was. Nothing was more punk rock than being. Taking the little cartoon lion and lamb into a punk rock flea market.

Jimmy: Absolutely, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And I think people appreciate that type of thing because I do think people are looking for authenticity because I think if Michael read the Woodstock stuff now, you, know, after all this time and Schulz's intention had been a sellout move, you would know. He wouldn't have been able to write if he was just like, you know what? I'm just going to do something cute that's going to be a, you know, the stuffed dog or whatever it's going to be.

Harold: Right? Yeah, yeah. Hallmark’s on my tail. I got to get this, get something out there that's going to sell on greeting cards.

Jimmy: 25 years later, it would still seem that way.

Michael: Yeah. There is an element, you know, getting back to the cartooning or the cartoon medium, the comic strip medium also it's really important to have somebody the character can talk to. And you'll find, you know, all the, the early superheroes all had kid sidekicks. and the only reason, yeah, you want a kid to identify with it, but also you want the hero to talk to someone and explain what's going on. Now Snoopy people can apparently read his mind somewhat, but apparently Woodstock and him can converse.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Michael: So the fact that he can talk to somebody just makes his character the richer somehow.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. Someone who is really in his world that he can communicate directly with. not this roundabout way. And they're in a totally different world. And actually, that's a real. This is something interesting to think about. Maybe the angry Snoopy from the early 50s, through the 60s. In some part, it would make you angry if you had no one you could communicate with.

Harold: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Jimmy: You know, you're the only person in this world that's like, you.

Harold: You know, you talk about comic strips where there's a tension built in, like, you know, will Lil Abner marry Daisy Mae or whatever. Yeah. And. And the tension. The question is, do you just keep that tension going on for decades, or do you finally have a payoff? And, you know, in the case of Daisy Mae, a lot of people said, well, that was the kind of the end of the Li’l Abner in some people's minds, because that. That major thing, now that they're married, it. It. It's just like. It just takes you down a level.

Jimmy: Because you don't have that.

Liz: Sam and Diane

Harold: yeah, exactly. I was just thinking. Yes. And so. But here, what is amazing for Schulz is, like you said, you know, that I think that's totally true. You know, you have this frustrated dog who's in his own world, and he's smarter than the kids in a lot of ways, and they can't see it, and he can't express it in ways that they can generally connect to very well. And then you do get the payoff. It's like, okay, now he's got somebody who does communicate with him, and that tension is released. But it doesn't diminish the strip. That's hard. That's a hard thing to pull off because. And it will. It will disappoint some people, because people enjoy. They come back to something because of the tension.

Jimmy: Right.

Harold: And when it's gone, it's gone.

Liz: Is it because they aren't love interests?

Harold: I think that helps, but. And I think it's because it's unspoken. I mean, Jimmy just spoke it, but he's absolutely right. But, I don't think it was spoken. It just happens. And all of a sudden, you see a happier and more fatherly side to Snoopy, and you don't necessarily say, oh, that's because this is a. This has gone away, or this lack of thing is. Is. Is no longer a lack. It's. He's fulfilled in a way he's never been fulfilled before. And because you love Snoopy, you're happy for him. Right. You know, and it's. It isn't something you're just thinking about, oh, I'm so happy he's got A friend now, but you're getting that fulfillment and that this went on for, like, 30 years. That fulfillment is still satisfying over and over and over again because we do see the other side of Snoopy still. He still is struggling and questioning and upset about things that's, still there, but it's not what it was.

Liz: it strikes me right now, as I'm looking at the strips, we're gonna talk about that. Part of what I think gives Snoopy a fatherly kind of sense is that he has to narrate for Woodstock. He is repeating what he hears Woodstock saying, which, it sounds by explaining what he hears Woodstock thinking. He sounds a little more like he's explaining the world. But maybe they are much more friends than they are older versus younger characters.

Michael: Yeah.

Jimmy: I mean, there's definitely both aspects to it. I feel like, you know, I think, especially when Snoopy becomes the scoutmaster, that feels like parental Charles Schulz to me, because he had five kids. You know, he's trying to chase around.

Harold: Brother, like the teenage brother.

Jimmy: A lot of an older brother. Yes. I think, on the, like, explaining the world stuff. And it's funny because, like, we've seen that with Linus and Lucy, but here, Snoopy's at least genuinely trying to teach something as opposed to Lucy, who's just, you know, making stuff up. Oh, by the way, should we announce what our next season is right here, right now? Speaking of that.

Harold: Yeah, sure.

Jimmy: We're doing the Van Pelts. What is up with this family? We're going to try to figure out who their parents are. What is going on?

Harold: Yeah. We're going to do a six episode series on Mr. And Mrs. Van Pelt.

Jimmy: It's going to be true how he.

Michael: Came over from Scandinavia.

Jimmy: Right. Oh, man.

Michael: Well, there's one other thing about this relationship.

Jimmy: Let's do it.

Michael: There is a boss employee relationship here.

Harold: Yep. Yeah.

Liz: Not necessarily an employee who always follows the rules.

Michael: No, but employees don't. Could be disgruntled. But Woodstock is still the one who's going to be carrying stuff if Snoopy tells him to.

Jimmy: yes, yes. And Schulz actually originally thought the main function of the character would be just Snoopy's secretary. And we could talk a little bit about that as we get into the strips, because I did a little bit of research. Very little.

Harold: You have read the entire run.

Jimmy: I have, yeah. At this point, we should be able to say, with some authority, what the heck is going on in this strip?

Harold: But I agree with what you just said about that Snoopy is interpreting for Woodstock for us. I don't know why that works so well. And there's something really charming about that. I don't know what it is that you've got a character who. Who cannot talk directly to us, but there's an intermediary character who's gonna let us in on the secret. 

Jimmy: Yeah, it is very interesting. All right, well, if you want, we're gonna get to these strips now, but if you wanna find out in advance what strips we are going to be covering in these shows, what you do is go over to unpackingpeanuts.com, sign up for the Great Peanuts reread, which is over, but it doesn't matter. It will get you one email a month telling you what we're going to be reading and all the good news that's upcoming and where Harold's going to be and whatever else is in it. It's a fun time. And you only get one a month. So, sign up for it and it's free. Okay, so with all of that prelude and you guys allowing me the time to gripe about subscription fees, let's get to the strips.

Michael: All right.

March 4, 1966. Snoopy is lying atop the doghouse, and there is a bird's nest on his stomach. And he's thinking to himself, how do things like this happen to me? I'm too easygoing. That's why I should have said something as soon as that stupid bird started to build this nest. The next thing you know, there will be--And then in the fourth panel, two little birds, two little birdies, little chicks or whatever you would call them, pop up from the nest. One says, cheep. And Snoopy looks out at us and says, I knew it.

Michael: Yeah, the proto Woodstocks were not really lovable.

Harold: No.

Jimmy: This has, like, a Doonesberry vibe to me.

Harold: I don't know. I think of Mad magazine. Something that would be in the along spine in the margins.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is I. They. Technically, according to the Peanuts Wiki, two days later is the first appearance of Woodstock. Even though one of these birds is Woodstock. I'm not sure how that makes. But, yeah. So in the. In the course of the strip, a bird builds a nest on Snoopy's stomach, lays two eggs. These two chicks hatch, and one of them flies away, and the other one comes back, and that's the one that becomes Woodstock.

Harold: So Woodstock was hatched on Snoopy's stomach?

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: This is a piece of Peanuts trivia. We can all remember.

Jimmy: Now Liz, and, you might not remember, but did someone write to us at some point or one of our interviewees said Woodstock used to be a girl.

Liz: I can't remember who said it

Jimmy: Someone did say it. Well, they were wrong.

Michael: Okay, wait a minute. How do we know Schulz?

Jimmy: This is from the Peanuts Wiki. Schulz claims he originally considered the bird to be a female, but changed his mind after naming it in June 1970. In an interview in 1987, Schulz said, I had been reading the Life magazine article about the Woodstock Festival, and I had the little bird in the strip. It was a she, and she was Snoopy's secretary. And I was doing secretary jokes quite often. So then I thought Woodstock would be a good name for this bird. And also it will get the attention of these people that like that sort of thing. Suddenly she was not a secretary. She became Woodstock the boy. It just happened. That's what's good about a comic strip. You can just do,.

Michael:  why is the name a boy's name or a girl's name?

Liz: And why. Why is his secretary always a girl?

Michael: Used to be a boy.

Jimmy: Well, all of this is moot because Schulz is wrong about all of this, because Woodstock is referred to as a he and guy just after being introduced in the strips, literally on the 8th and 9th of this same month and then again in the next month. So, oh, in April 19, 67 is the official first appearance. So that's just a misremembered thing. Schulz had that. It crept into an interview and then became something people repeat. But there you go.

Harold: Very interesting.

Michael: There's no reality.

Jimmy: Oh, yeah. Nothing is real, but nothing to get hung about. Here's something that's really weird. How do things like this happen? And then the answer is, I'm too easygoing. That's why.

Liz: Oh, yes.

Jimmy: It really should have been, why do things like this happen? Or that's how. But anyway, so, yeah, I thought that would be a good place to. To start looking at the really scrawny looking proto Woodstock. which. There were birds in the strip going back to the 50s. But this is. This is where we start getting this real strange Woodstock stuff.

Michael: They were playing poker. He had to kick them out. They were. They were robbing his house. They were not good little birds.

Liz: No.

Jimmy: Sneaking out with the painting. 

February 8, 1986. 

Jimmy: I picked this one because I thought this was, a cute look at their friendship. 

So Snoopy and Woodstock are atop the doghouse, and they're both enjoying an ice Cream cone. And Snoopy says to Woodstock, I always have the vanilla on the bottom and the chocolate on top of the. And Woodstock says something back to Snoopy, which Snoopy then repeats, you like to have the vanilla on top and the chocolate on the bottom. That's interesting. And in the last panel, Snoopy smiles and thinks, it takes all kinds to make a world.

Michael: Where do you get miniature little ice cream cones?

Jimmy: A miniature little ice cream truck.

Harold: Obviously, you know, one of the things about Woodstock speaking, you know, we see the little. Two little bubbles for Snoopy's thought. And then Woodstock has those scratch lines that often are at, kind of odd angles. They look kind of in disarray. And then the balloon around it is this kind of fragile, wispy thing. It's like it's having trouble even holding together. I, think that's brilliant. I think that adds to the kind of the fragile nature of Woodstock. The way. Little bit of a. Kind of a, I don't know if harried is the right word, but disheveled little creature, you know?

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: It works really well. And I love that when they start out the strip here, for three of the four panels, Woodstock kind of has his beak in the back of the ice cream cone. So we don't exactly know how he's, eating this.

Jimmy: You know what this also reminds me of?

Liz: What?

Harold: What's that?

Michael: Finnegan’s Wake

Jimmy: This podcast. This podcast. This is like, oh, you like 1957 Snoopy? Oh, I. I really like 1958 Snoopy. That is fascinating.

Liz: It takes all kinds.

Jimmy: It takes all kinds.

Harold: I like the radio 915.

Michael: I like the 916.

Liz: Well, wait a second. I want to go on record here. This. I don't think we picked any strips where Woodstock is writing letters, but it really bothers me when we hear Woodstock speaking.

Michael: Oh, really?

Jimmy: Oh, really?

Liz: I object to that. we should not. He should not be speaking English. He should only speak little, scratch marks, Chirps.

Harold: Even though we get to hear what is being paraphrased by Snoopy.

Liz: Well, paraphrasing by Snoopy is fine, but when he writes the letters from camp and stuff like that, that really bothers me.

Harold: Oh. That's. Yeah. Well, it takes all kinds to make a world. Yeah.

Liz: So there.

Harold: Duly noted.

Jimmy: All right, that is your hot take for this episode. 

August 9, 1987. This is a Sunday strip. It starts out with symbolic panel of Snoopy and Woodstock, poking their heads out of what looks like a mound of dirt. Possibly coming up from an underground tunnel. And then we cut to the two goofballs atop Snoopy's doghouse. And Snoopy says to Woodstock, don't let them kid you. Cats are so dumb. They're still talking on the doghouse as Snoopy says, did you ever see a cat sit and stare at a gopher hole? And then Snoopy demonstrates this by looking over the edge of his doghouse and says, they sit there like this, and they just stare. And while he's explaining this, Woodstock jumps off the doghouse in the opposite direction so Snoopy can't see him. And Snoopy continues. They sit there, and they stare and stare and stare. Now Woodstock's on the ground, sneaking around the house. So again, Snoopy still can't see him. As Snoopy says, if a gopher ever stuck his head up out of the hole, the cat would probably faint. And then we see a tiny little Woodstock tied up against the wall of the doghouse. And then he sneaks out and a startled Snoopy who yells, yipe. As Woodstock jumps up towards him. And in the last panel, an embarrassed and, distressed Snoopy says, stupid bird. I knew it wasn't really a gopher. And then Woodstock laughs.

Michael: What is with Snoopy's head? In that last panel, he's got, like, this. This wave coming out of.

Jimmy: Is a.

Michael: Wave that is bizarre. I've never seen that.

Jimmy: He was really upset by the gopher

Harold: Did you not do the Great Peanuts Reread

Michael: I must have missed this one. I mean, we could spend an hour talking about it.

Harold: yeah. Yeah. This one I don't really remember actually myself either.

Jimmy: I think it's just so cute and it shows. Well, here's what I think is cute mostly about it. Bottom tier, second panel. Woodstock up against the doghouse.

Liz: Yes.

Jimmy: With his eyes up. Just about to startle Snoopy.

Harold: Yeah. With his wings against the doghouse. They don't protrude to be seen.

Jimmy: Yeah. The classic. Oh, well, you know, freeze up against the wall kind of, while the spotlight from the prisons stands past you.

Michael: This is. That last tier has got odd stuff. The third panel, that's Snoopy's way off model there.

Harold: Yeah.

Michael: Never seen a Snoopy look anything like that.

Jimmy: The mouth. Is that what it is?

Michael: The mouth and the eyes. And it's Doonesberry eyes.

Harold: Yeah. Yeah. He definitely does some creative cartooning in that bottom tier. And I like the fact that little Woodstock laughing. Usually you see all of Woodstock's body, because how do you not. Because it's so tiny. It's going to fit anywhere on the panel. But here it's just his little neck up, little grin on his face. Laughing, I think is also a great choice.

Liz: And I can tolerate. Hee, Hee, Hee's. Instead of chirps.

Jimmy: Yeah. If it was just hash marks, it would look like he was like cursing him out or something.

Harold: And I love. Hee, Hee. Hee's coming out of Woodstock. And that first panel of them sticking up out of the mound of dirt. The gopher hole. Doesn't that remind you of the dog food?

Liz: Yes.

Jimmy: Yeah, totally is. Yeah.

Michael: This is a suburban strip. So they had like gophers. I mean, that's not anything we would have seen in LA.

Jimmy: Yeah, well, we are, we have groundhogs, to the point that I should charge them rent. At one point years ago, they, the entire yard was tunneled under. Tunneled with. By groundhogs.

Harold: Yeah, we, we had to catch one. It was. He was living under our, our place in Rye that we were renting and he, we had a bunch of stuff stored under the house, you know, just like a, top of dirt. And he found it, of course. He just dug his way in and was having the grand old time.

Jimmy: That's right. Studio apartment in New York. Come on.

Harold: Well, that was, that was later. This, this was our lovely little 780 square foot house.

Jimmy: No, but I mean, his was the studio apartment.

Harold: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. He had the whole ground floor to himself.

Jimmy: All right, well, let's take a break there, you know, get a beverage or something for yourself and come back for more, interesting discussions about, these two cartoon characters. Sound, good? All right, good.

BREAK

VO: Did you complete the great Peanuts Reread then show the world with a T shirt, a giant 17,897 emblazoned on your chest for all to see. We also have a be of good cheer pen nib design. Along with the four of us crossing Abbey Road. And of course Michael, Jimmy and Harold at the thinking wall. Order your T shirts today@unpackingpeanuts.com store.

Jimmy: All right, we're back. What beverage did you get? I got a Coke Zero. Cause I used to be addicted to Coke and I beat that addiction and now I'm addicted to Coke Zero.

Michael: Anyway, I got a Diet Water Zero.

Jimmy: Water Zero. Oh, I like Diet Water Zero Lite. That's my favorite. Yeah. Liz, do we have anything in the mailbox?

Liz: We do. We heard from our pal Debbie Perry, who says, I didn't know if you all knew about Peanuts Esterbrook Pens. What she sends us a link that Esterbrook has come up with Peanuts branded pens and they look like. And also all kinds of other merchandise, including what seemed very strange to me, which is a Snoopy To Go Pen cup for the low, low price of 69.95.

Jimmy: Holy cow. Yeah, I'm looking at, these now. The cheaper pen is 85 bucks. They go so 112.50 for some of them. They're fountain pens.

Liz: I'm not sure that they're all fountain pens.

Harold: Here's a ballpoint pen for $95. Yeah, they call the. The Esti nib type ballpoint.

Liz: And Debbie adds. Would they make someone as good an artist as good old Charles Schulz? Probably not. But in a time where we're getting more Peanuts souvenirs than you can shake a security blanket at, at least this one feels more like there's an actual connection to Schulz's legacy than yet another puffer coat Snoopy travel mug.

Harold: Well, it's, ah, interesting. I see on the nib, if you do get the fountain pen. Yeah. Facing you as you draw. You can see in a little word balloon with the thought bubbles. Good grief.

Jimmy: That's cool. I would have loved it if they could have done the 914 nib. There are fountain pens that you can take drawing nibs to. Right. I think you get them on like jetpens and places like that. I might be wrong.

Harold: Well, I do love the cap that they had with Snoopy little, little teardrop ear shape kind of thing with his face on it. Adorable.

Jimmy: Very cool.

Harold: Well, thanks for mentioning that, Debbie.

Jimmy: Yeah, absolutely. I kind of, as much as I scoff about it, I kind of want one. Well, not gonna do it, but I kind of did wanna.

Liz: Well, maybe someone will get it for you for Christmas.

Jimmy: That's not happening.

Harold: Oh, wait. Okay, this seals the deal. You get a T shirt cloth inspired by Snoopy's signature look, letting every writing moment feel playful and unforgettable. Well, come on. It's got. It's got the little ring neck thing. Take a look. You got to look this up here. It looks like, you know, the classic 70s. What do they call those, like, ring neck things where you have a different color collar, you got a red collar like Snoopy does, and then you have this little cute Snoopy with the red collar in what? I guess it's a full, full size miniature. I mean, it's a full miniature T shirt. I don't know what you use it for. I don't want to wipe up my ink stains with it.

Jimmy: Yeah. I mean, that seems crazy, right?

Harold: And yet it's adorable. Oh, yeah. There's a little picture of it by itself. It's just a tiny little T shirt. You can put it on your ferret or.

Liz: Your gopher.

Harold: Your gopher, which absolutely. Oh, my.

Liz: All righty.

Jimmy: That is amazing. And I guess Esterbrook’s back. I thought they were out of business, but.

Harold: Well, it could. I. I hope this is not the case, but a lot of people have, ah, been buying up old trademarks, and they don't necessarily have anything to do with the original, and they may or may not be faithful to the original. I don't know what the case is with Esterbrook.

Jimmy: Well, as long as somebody authentically revived the original Moleskine notebooks, that is all that matters to me.

Harold: Yeah. It says, although the Original Esterbrook Pen Company closed its doors in the 1970s, the brand was reborn in 2018 under the leadership of Kenro Industries. So there you go. Who knows?

Jimmy: Who knows?

Michael: Kenny Rogers.

Jimmy: All right. But thank you, Debbie. That's. That is definitely a cool item for a cartoonist. If you have a cartoonist in your life out there and you got, you know, a sawbuck, you want to, It's burning a hole in your pocket.

Harold: There you go.

Jimmy: All right, well, if anybody else wants to reach out to us, you can shoot us an email. We're unpackingpeanutsmail, dot com. Or you can call us on our hotline or text the hotline, 717-219-4162. I'd love to hear from you, because remember, when I don't hear, I worry. So how about we get back to the old comic strips?

Liz: Let's do.

Harold: Yeah.

April 28, 1971, Snoopy and Woodstock atop the doghouse. And Woodstock is just chirping away at Snoopy. And Snoopy looks out at us and says, woodstock went to this party last night. Woodstock continues. And this bunch of chirps has some hearts in it. And Snoopy says, there was this cute little sparrow see, and he sort of fell for her. And Snoopy continues. But then this blue jay told him that this robin who is with this hummingbird still liked this sparrow who liked this canary who liked this blue jay. And the Woodstock continues with even more chirps in the last panel. And then Snoopy says, actually, it's all very confusing. 

Jimmy: Now, the reason I picked this to talk about is because this is what we were talking about earlier with Snoopy translating, you know, Woodstock to us. But it's so transparently obvious that the only person Snoopy could be talking to us to is us, the reader. There's nobody else there that he's doing this for. That's very much like the puppet show model you were talking about earlier, Harold.

Harold: Right, The Mystery Science Theater model. Yeah, yeah. Look, and they're just talking directly to you in the camera. It's super powerful. It really is. And I love to see it. That second panel of Snoopy giving us a little side eye with a big grin because he's enjoying sharing about the cute little sparrow. It's just. Yeah, it's just fun. And specifically Schulz at the same time. I mean, this is just. I can't imagine another comic strip that would pull this off. And it was such a charming way.

Liz: You know, Woodstock looks a little different in these drawings.

Jimmy: still getting developed.

Harold: In terms of the look. Right. Because he hasn't been around long, but he has figured out the way you show an explaining Woodstock is with the little wings out, on either side. I love the oratorial stance that he has, telling his story with a lot of confidence that Snoopy wants to hear the whole thing.

Jimmy: What do you think about the size of this character, Michael, especially in these panels?

Michael: Well, it'd be interesting to compare the head size to body size in the future because his head is twice as big as his body.

Jimmy: It is. Yes.

Michael: Which implies baby.

Jimmy: Yeah, that's right.

Harold: Yeah.

Jimmy: It also could kind of imply intelligence. Right? No, no. Maybe here's something we never really talk about, but that I especially as a kid, I used to draw these, the comma eyes that he draws with Snoopy, you know, given the side eye or looking up. Nobody did that. Right. Just. They're literally punctuation marks in some. They look like them, but it really works.

Harold: Yeah. And he's got him in three of the panels here in one direction and the other direction. And then when he's looking up kind of cross eyed and now they're pointing instead of the same direction there, they're pointing toward each other. Great.

February 13th, 1975. It's Sunday page, and Woodstock is waking up in his nest. Up. Which is perched atop a. Or actually he's falling asleep in his nest, which is perched atop a very straggly looking little birch tree. And we see Snoopy peering out from a little thicket of trees looking at. On his friend. And as Woodstock is asleep, Snoopy, with a very mischievous grin on his face, sneaks over to Woodstock's house, then takes the nest with the sleeping Woodstock in It and puts it on a fence in a completely different location. And then walks away giggling to himself with his little joke. And then Woodstock wakes up, is shocked to find he's not in the tree. He looks around a bit, then walks over to Snoopy's dog house and begins telling his friend what has happened. And Snoopy translates for us. What Woodstock is saying is, I dreamed that my mother had come back to the nest and that she and I were flying through the air together. And I was so happy. And then Woodstock continues, as Snoopy explains, then I woke up, my nest was sitting on a fence post. My mother really hadn't come home. I was all alone. And Snoopy sighs and Woodstock sniffs, you know, holding back the tears. And a very upset looking Snoopy, thanks to himself, I think he'll give up practical jokes.

Liz: I remember when we did this in the reread. this one is a heartbreaker.

Jimmy: It's so sad. And it really talk. It speaks to Woodstock's vulnerability. Whether it's physically when he's out playing football and getting smashed, or just emotionally, he is happily, openly emotional with Snoopy. and you know, he can still give it. He played the groundhog joke. So. But this one just. Oh, it's devastating.

Harold: And it's strange just thinking, okay, so Snoopy takes the Woodstock off of the nest, walks Woodstock over to this looks like kind of a barn style fence post on the edge of the fence. And it's almost as if the fact that he lifted that nest and took it to the post was what created the dream. Right? Is that kind of what he's suggesting? Yeah, absolutely.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah.

Harold: He's suggesting that Snoopy, through his actions, directed unexpectedly the dream of Woodstock. So it's strange he inadvertently gave Woodstock that memory, which was so happy. But the end of it was not, was not his intention. Yeah, it just that that's kind of got some layers to it as well. I guess the Snoopy-- Snoopy created something for Woodstock that was actually very beautiful, but it had a rough ending.

Jimmy: Yep, yep.

Harold: I just love this poor little Woodstock.

Jimmy: I love, I love the drawing in it too. This is a, really nice era for Snoopy design.

Harold: Snoopy sneaking away from the, from the fence post with a big grin and a closed, happy eye is classic, classic art here.

Jimmy: Yeah, I really like the, the one of him looking out from the trees. And I like the one of the first panel of the second tier. I like that both of those a lot.

Harold: there are your double comma eyes in the last panel.

October 7, 1979. All, right, it's another Sunday, and it's Snoopy with the Beagle Scouts. They are out in the woods roasting marshmallows at night over a campfire. And Snoopy says to the Scouts, well, that's the end of the marshmallows. Did everyone have enough to eat? Then he yawns and says, I don't know about you guys, but I'm ready for bed. Let's get out those old sleeping bags and hit the hay. And then we have a wordless panel of the Scouts and Snoopy, setting up their camp with their sleeping bags. And then we see an adorable panel of Snoopy tucked in and all the little birds tucked in their tiny little sleeping bags. And Snoopy says, good night, men. Sleep well. And then as he rolls over to go to sleep, he says, may a thousand angels rest on your shoulders. And then we don't see the birds, but we see their four Scout hats shoot up into the air because it freaks them out. And Woodstock, and his friends all snuggle in with Snoopy in his sleeping bag, looking totally scared. And Snoopy rolls his eyes and says, my grandmother used to say that every night.

Michael: I think, here's my theory. It seems unusual that the whole big setup really has nothing to do with the punchline.

Harold: Uh-huh.

Michael: I was wondering if this was an idea for a daily. Just that bottom three panels, it works just as well.

Jimmy: Oh, yeah.

Michael: And then he decided to pad it.

Jimmy: It's interesting. You could certainly take those three panels, reformat it slightly, and make it a daily for sure.

Harold: Why do you think he chose Sunday for this one? You're right.

Michael: Well, maybe, I mean, Sunday, Steve was probably saving his bigger ideas, more complex ideas, because, you know, he just probably in his notebook was, you know, just scribbling away. He went, oh, yeah, it's a good one. But a Sunday one had to be somewhat special.

Michael: And I wonder maybe he didn't have anything better.

Liz: Well, but it has a nice environment. I mean, the.

Jimmy: Yes.

Harold: Yeah. You think that's what it was, Liz? He was trying to kind of get you nestled into the setting and the.

Liz: Marshmallows and the fire and the little tiny sleeping bags. I mean, it's a wonderful. You're slowing down and getting sleepy.

Jimmy: Yeah, I think it's a very nicely designed strip. I like the black of the night sky. Sky and the placement of it on the, you know, because we talked about spotting blacks in panels. I'm not sure. I'm sure we Have. But you also have to spot blacks over the course of the whole composition of the strip. And this looks really nice. You know, it's nicely balanced. And it, like Liz said, it's very atmospheric. I really like this punchline. Like it's meant to be something comforting, but it's a, terrifying, you know, complex, abstract thought to these little birds. Like, I remember being a kid and thinking of the concept of like eternity. And it was not a fun concept that.

Harold: Right.

Jimmy: It was a terrifying concept. Like something would go on forever and ever and ever. And you. The only option in those instances is, you know, pull the sleeping bag up to your neck, wait till morning.

Harold: And maybe they're concerned because they don't have shoulders.

Jimmy: That's problem. You know, that's the problem. Did you guys experience that when you were young? Those dark nights of the soul? something that. It just seems to be a basic fact of humanity or something that an adult can say with very little thought that would keep you up at night.

Harold: Yeah. Or don't let the beg bugs bite. It's a classic.

Michael: I just can't imagine my grandmother, Hungarian grandmother, saying anything. It wasn't English saying anything at all. That was in English.

Liz: Piggly Viggly

Jimmy: That's amazing. So she only spoke Hungarian her whole life?

Michael: Yeah, she never really learned English.

Jimmy: Wow. But you remember her?

Michael: Oh, yeah, yeah, we loved it. But it seemed normal to have grandparents who you couldn't talk to. Just seemed totally normal.

Jimmy: Well, yeah, if you don't know any different. Well, that. My mom was the same way. You know, she learned Lithuanian because her grandmother didn't speak English.

Harold: Wow.

Liz: So those of you who hate camp, do you also hate camping?

Michael: I like marshmallows.

Jimmy: I think those are two separate things.

Harold: Yes.

Michael: Yeah.

Harold: I've learned to kind of enjoy camping. When I set my little tent within a tent at a show, I'm just sleeping overnight on the street of some little town or in a park somewhere where I've set up for my job.

Michael: Wait, you're actually.

Jimmy: That you're really doing that?

Harold: Yeah, I, I was. I did a two day show in upstate New York and it was. It was on a, it was on their streets. You know, they block off the streets for a two day event. And so the, the night I was there, You know, it's like I couldn't find a hotel. It was close by and it was inexpensive. So I thought, you know, they have these things called bed tents. I don't know if you guys have ever seen these. I think sometimes it's for people who need some sensory, you know, overload issues that are trying to take down the sense. So you literally, it's like a little Conestoga wagon top. It pops right up and it's flat on the bottom. And so I got a little mattress, little blow up mattress that and stuck it inside of there. So I have this big 10 by 10 foot tent and then I have my little Conestogan wagon in the back inside the tent, behind my table and all my setup and. Yeah, and I just, I slept there for a couple of nights.

Michael: I think the last time, last time Liz and I went camping it was in Montana somewhere. And here's the tip to all you campers. Don't camp in a place that's like 20 yards away from the railroad track.

Liz: And has train every hour.

Harold: Oh man.

Liz: Yeah, that was pretty bad.

Harold: I bet.

Jimmy: Well, I, I haven't camped since the girls were little and we would just set up a tent in the backyard and do like backyard camping.

Harold: Yeah, I was scared to death of having to go and do whatever physical activity some older teenage kid thought I should do. It's like going to gym for three weeks, you know. I don't think so. That does not sound like fun to me.

Jimmy: Well, the whole point of summer is no one's telling you what to do.

Harold: Well, that's true too. Yeah. I know people who absolutely love camping. I got to go up and visit this beautiful camp on Lake Winnipesaukee and I, and I got a tour of it and it was amazing. I mean I was like, wow, this is, I can see why people would fall, in love with this. But I used to always think of it and maybe it's because of the things I saw in the media. Maybe Schulz, Schulz was absolutely part of me not wanting to camp. Absolutely. He made it look like a thing to dread. And I'm so grateful. I really never had to do it because, because of that. But I also see, you know, it's not necessarily run by drill sergeants and how it actually is this freeing thing where you get to, you get to be in a beautiful atmosphere, you get to do something different and see what it's like to rough it just a little bit, you know. So it's like people who watch horror films to desensitize themselves enough to the horrors of life that they feel like they're prepared if something bad happens. I've already experienced this terror. You know, I think that's kind of, you know, a little bit of what camping is. It's like, oh, if I ever had to rough it, if we ever lost our home, and, you know, there was some horrible disaster and we have to trek across the mountains.

Liz: I think there are other reasons to go camping.

Harold: Maybe one or two.

Jimmy: Well, yeah, there's also being an adult and pretending that you're Frodo in a socially acceptable way. That's the other reason.

Harold: Well, There you go.

February 8, 1982. Snoopy and Woodstock are atop the doghouse. You might notice there's a theme of this, and there's a beautiful full moon out. And Snoopy looks at it and says to his pal, there's a full moon tonight. You know what this means? It means they finally got it finished. Then he laughs. Woodstock stares at him blankly and then has no reaction. In the last panel, and a really frustrated Snoopy says, good jokes are wasted on birds. 

Jimmy: Tell me that blank, the blank space or face on Woodstock in that last panel, where the eyes are so close together, they're almost one eye. That is just minimal cartooning genius. And I think it would be hard to draw such a little white figure against all that black without making it totally disappear.

Harold: And it kind of does in the version we're looking at. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. And I mean, the idea that Woodstock is a little bit bewildered. Woodstock could have just continued to stare at him.

Jimmy: Yeah.

Liz: And he has no mouth. There's no mouth that adds to the expression.

Harold: yeah. But the two little eyes that are angled in on each other at, the top shows that sense of confusion. And then the one other just genius thing he does is usually the little. The little tuft in the back of his head are all going in a certain direction, and it's kind of wilted on the left. And so it just adds to this sense that he's just kind of sunk into some confusion. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's great.

Jimmy: Good looking strip. 

September 27th, 1987. It's another Sunday. And one of the reasons I picked this one is just so we could talk about that first drawing, which is Snoopy trying to fly with an elaborate, homemade, like, bird contraption with the tail and wings and goggles and the whole thing. And Woodstock in the next panel, that was a symbolic panel. So in the next panel, we see Woodstock flying. And he ends up landing at Snoopy's house. And Snoopy watches him land. And then he thinks to himself, flying is wasted on birds. This would be a better world if beagles could fly. Then Snoopy jumps up and starts explaining how he would do it, which actually pops Woodstock up in shock. As Snoopy says, if beagles could fly, we could swoop down on cats and boot them over the fence. Then we could zoom away. And then, an annoyed Snoopy turns and looks to his neighbor's yard and says, did you hear that, you stupid cat? And the cat does his famous slash, sending Snoopy flying. And Snoopy says, I flew, but I wasn't flying. 

Jimmy: I just really picked this because I wanted to talk about that first drawing, because I don't remember this at all. And it just made me laugh hysterically when I saw it this time. Anybody anything else to say about this? No, that's okay. All right, let's move on.

Harold: It's a pretty cool, Pretty cool little contraption. I've never seen this contraption. Have you ever seen somebody having a rudder for a plane?

Jimmy: Doesn't it seem like it's. Every time you would see, like, it was always the same clips of the early flying machines. You know, the wings collapsing, someone flying. Yeah, there's probably one version of this.

Harold: But there's a wonderful documentary called Gizmo. I don't know if it's available anymore, because they used all these classic clips from the 20s and 30s, and now I don't think they have the rights to them anymore. But it was all about footage of people showing off their contraptions, and many of them were flying machines. And this takes me back to that, because, you know, you basically have someone giving a. A huge, long, formal speech about what they've done and how they've innovated and the grandeur of it, and man will now take to the stars and all this stuff, and then. And then they fall off of a rock.

Jimmy: There is, There. You always have to remember, at the bottom of the base of cartooning, I should say, is just drawing. And if you can make fun drawings, if you can make interesting drawings, exciting drawings, you're half the way home. More than half the way home, really?

Harold: Yeah, there's.

Jimmy: There's a truism among cartoonists that bad writing can save, or good writing can save bad art, but good art can never save bad writing. And that's utterly untrue.

Harold: Right.

Jimmy: I mean, there are millions of comics that have sold tremendously well that people love that they can barely read the story. They're just looking at the beautiful picture.

Harold: That is true. not for me, though.

Jimmy: I can't.

Harold: There are a few things, I think, that were so beautiful that I wasn't getting into the writing that I would get. Like when Rocketeer came out, Dave Stevens, that was worth it just for at least for a couple issues.

Jimmy: Well, that's all it lasted was like a few. Because he couldn't, you know, put that out with any regularity. But yeah, that's a great example. Something that. Well, Michael, I'm sure that's more yours. You must have quite a few comics that are beautiful to look at that you don't really want to read.

Michael: I've bought. I mean, I don't, really been buying comics for many years, but I keep seeing these Michael Allred covers that he was, like, doing for Marvel, various things. And they're so gorgeous that I go, these have got to be really, like, fun comics to read. And so I've gotten some collections and read like two pages and I went like, I can't read this. I sure like the art.

Jimmy: Yeah, it's such a, cliche, like, oh, I just look at the pictures. But when there are like, these master illustrators, that's kind of a legitimate way to enjoy something.

Liz: Yeah.

Michael: Well, now, now they have, you know, like the, the Mark Schulz sketchbooks and stuff. And yeah, I look at it once, but without the story, you know, great art is not good enough. You need them both.

Jimmy: You need ‘em both. Interesting.

Harold: Yeah. At least for, you know, I just got a copy. Do you ever read DC's Angel and the Ape?

Jimmy: Yeah, sure.

Harold: That is Bob Oskner and the inks.

Jimmy: Is it Carmine Infantino who drew it?

Harold: well, I. Oskner penciled it. And then the issue I had was. Issue two was inked by Wally Wood.

Jimmy: Oh, wow.

Michael: That'll make anything look good.

Harold: It was a crazy. It was a crazy story that just didn't kind of hold together very well. But I was definitely enjoying the artwork. It was just a notch above those two guys, just having a lot of fun drawing. They had a parody of Stan Lee in there. I was expecting that. Yeah.

Jimmy: That's funny.

Michael: No, great. No, I did get the collection the. The Challengers of the Unknown that Jack Kirby and Wally Wood. I mean, that's the greatest penciller inker team of all time. Still unreadable.

Harold: So how does Wood do with. With, with Kirby's pencils?

Michael: Oh, he's the best.

Harold: Yeah.

Michael: On Kirby, no one can match that. I mean, it's the greatest pair up of all time. But still, you. You can't read these stories. I couldn't read these stories.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah. You have to just like, somehow approach it for what it is and what it is. You know, is something that wasn't really well thought of at the time for a reason. You know, and the writing behind was always lagged behind in comic books, particularly up until probably, I bet, until Alan Moore. Did they, like, achieve parity? Yeah.

Michael: Jaime Hernandez or Gilbert and Jaime. Yeah, there's nothing worth. There was actually nothing worth reading, if you really think about it in the 60s.

Jimmy: Which is why we're not doing the comic book podcast, I guess.

Liz: I was going to ask about, doesn't that first panel look like Arthur?

Jimmy: Oh, it does look like Arthur, for some reason. I always thought you meant the Dudley Moore character for a second, but, yes, it does look like Arthur.

Michael: Well, I think he had a photo of, you know, amazing young men in their flying machines. Yeah, yeah, that period. Because with the goggles and the little hat, it's like 1890s.

Jimmy: It's funny, though. He doesn't use the World War I Flying Ace helmet. That's reserved.

Harold: This is a different helmet.

Jimmy: Well, you know what, guys? I think we've kind of covered the Snoopy.

Michael: Well, you missed. You missed one.

Liz: You missed Nighthawks.

Michael: You missed Nighthawks.

Jimmy: Oh, for God's sake. I missed Nighthawks, which is like one.

Michael: Of the greatest opening panels he's ever done.

Liz: Really. I have it saved on my desktop.

August 29th, 1993. It's a Sunday. And it starts off with a parody slash homage of Hopper's famous painting Nighthawks, but with the diners inside the diner all being little birdies. Then it cuts to Snoopy in his Monet hat painting Woodstock, who is perched on a stone opposing for him. And Snoopy draws a little Woodstock. That's pretty good. But then the legs and arms are stick figures, but, you know, it's still pretty good. And Woodstock takes it home and sets it up in his nest. And he looks at it for a little while, but then he goes back to Snoopy with some editorial notes. Love that. Love that. (You get 1 revision. Woodstock 1 After that you’re paying more, just so you know.) So then. Anyway, so Woodstock makes his suggestion, and Snoopy obliges. And then Woodstock goes back to his nest and is much happier because now the portrait of him drawn by Snoopy has a big smile, and so does Woodstock in the nest.

Michael: This is one of the great Woodstock strips.

Jimmy: What do you like so much about it?

Michael: Well, it's one of those things where you smile because he's so happy with his little portrait. Makes me happy. Like, I'm happy that he's happy.

Jimmy: Happy that Woodstock is happy. Absolutely.

Michael: His portrait's happy.

Liz: And that.

Jimmy: That Nighthawks. Oh, my panel.

Liz: Oh, my.

Jimmy: Is so cute. So funny.

Liz: The. The waiter with the little waiter hat on.

Michael: And a tip to Jimmy for noticing the. Is that Monet or Renoir? Monet hat.

Jimmy: I think it's a Monet hat. But, you know, it also looks like Vito Corleone at the end of the Godfather, you know, just kind of old man Vito.

Liz: It's also kind of like a beagle scout, but.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, but the rounded, rounded touch.

Harold: And Pharrell put that in.

Jimmy: Yes, it is also a Pharrell. Those are the big three. Monet, Vino, Corleone, and Pharrell. yeah, it's a great. A great strip.

Harold: I love Woodstock's dignified pose. In the first panel of the strip proper, after the. With his eyes closed, it's mixed in with. So doesn't telegraph the joke because we get both versions of Woodstock through the posing.

Michael: Uh-huh.

Harold: But he wants the one with the big smile, which I think is adorable.

Jimmy: Yeah. And it's also. If you look at that way, it's not even Woodstock criticizing Snoopy so much as I'm criticizing myself, himself, rather, and saying, oh, maybe I should have been smiling.

Michael: But then he sells it on ebay.

Harold: Yeah, that would go for a lot. It's signed by Snoopy. Come on.

Jimmy: Isn't that always the case?

Michael: Well, it's signed by Schulz, so he probably get, like, 10 grand for that.

Liz: On the third tier, is it just the image that we're looking at, or is Snoopy-- Does he have his tongue out?

Harold: He's got his tongue out.

Liz: Okay.

Harold: I love the little concentration tongue. That's such a classic.

Michael: That is a good smile.

Jimmy: And, you know, this was in the period where he was struggling with the hand tremor. And I admire the fact that he's like, that's okay. I'm still gonna draw this elaborate diner for the first. And knowing that a bunch of papers were gonna throw it away, which is a crime. But it's great that he did it.

Liz: Oh, and the. It's got the coffee machine in the back. Oh, My God.

Jimmy: Yep. that could be for the 20th century gallery.

Harold: I wanted to ask you guys about. Take a look at Woodstock in the second panel in the third tier, look at Woodstock's feet. And then look at Woodstock's feet walking. Looking at his picture in the next panel. Was he always. And you certainly see it in the second panel in the second tier, where the feet become this weird, almost see through. I don't know what exactly he's doing there. What he's going for, but it's like they become this abstract, crumpled looking design.

Liz: Is it movement?

Jimmy: Yeah, that's what I think.

Harold: Because it doesn't seem like if it were movement, you'd think he'd be angling it up or something to show. But it's really.

Michael: Schulz never dreamed people would be blowing this up and looking at it with a microscope.

Jimmy: Look at the feet on panel three in 1993. What the hell going on?

Harold: But, but doesn't it look like it's see through in the second panel in the second tier? Yeah, that's really, you know, why. I don't. That's one thing I don't. I don't quite understand.

Liz: Does the color contribute to its weirdness? I mean, if it was black and white, would it be different?

Harold: Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. It's almost like he's wearing sandals in the second class panel. It's very interesting.

Jimmy: It really might be that he did have so much control issues that for whatever reason, those things are basically just scribbled in. and especially because he's moving, it's okay. Because. Yeah, I, mean, especially it's that second panel on the second tier that you really see it.

Harold: Yeah. I mean, and there's. We see so many different instances of him. Well, you see three of them when he's going the opposite direction. To take the drawing back to Snoopy, the painting back to Snoopy. Again, a different kind of look. It's almost like his feet are feathers.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Harold: Really. Really. I mean, for bird anatomy, I'm not quite sure what he's going for, but it just looks. Yeah. I mean, it partially kind of goes back to the idea where we were saying he would be super, always incredibly specific with the eyes, of the characters, that they would be crisp and clean. And the outline of, like, Charlie Brown's head, how he always got that to the very end in this swoop of mastery. And then as you went further out in the drawing to the extremities, it's almost like on purpose he would make some of it look rougher so that it would look like it was the periphery of your vision and you're focused back in on the character and the expression.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, I think that's true too. Well, having discussed Snoopy and now Snoopy and Woodstock, you know, for low these many episodes, do we have anything we want to sum up with?

Michael: good character.

Jimmy:  Yeah, works out pretty well. I think you're right. So are you guys excited about the Van Pelts.

Michael: Oh, yeah. I'm excited about the Van Pelts, especially Grandma and Grandpa.

Jimmy: You're gonna take them all the way back to the 1600. According to one of those, animated Peanut specials, there were Van Pelts on the, the Mayflower.

Harold: Really?

Jimmy: Well, it's not really. It's one of those American history things where they had the Peanuts,.

Michael: Huguenots fleeing the political strife in Holland.

Jimmy: That's actually. That's from L’il Folks. I don't know if we'll get to that. Oh, guys, it's always fun hanging out with my pals, talking about the best comic strip of all time. And the fact that you guys hang around and listen to it as well just makes me so happy. So if you want to come back next week, or next time, rather in two weeks when we'll be. What is happening in two weeks?

Liz: Well, actually, this episode is being released right before Christmas, and so it will. We'll be back next year.

Michael: Oh, this is Saint Dagobert eve.

Liz: Yes.

Michael: Happy Saint Dagobert, everybody.

Jimmy: Yes, yes. Whatever you are celebrating out there, make it merry and bright. Hey, and listen to our, Charlie Brown Christmas episode. That should be your new holiday tradition, if you haven't done that already.

Harold: And if you don't have Apple tv.

Jimmy: No, if you don't have Apple tv. That's right. We read all the strips they adapt. So, it'll be just like you there.

Liz: And we have a very special guest coming up in our next episode.

Harold: Yeah, we do.

Jimmy: Harold, do you want to announce who it is?

Harold: We are thrilled to have Patrick McDonnell, the artist of Mutts, to join us to talk Peanuts. I mean, Mutts is a masterpiece. Strip. We've already talked about Mutts because Charles Schulz put Mutts in his very own strip. But a very unique honor, and to have Patrick himself on is going to be an absolute treat and an honor. He is one of the masters of, cartoonists who were still working in.

Jimmy: The comic strip field and quite historian as well. I actually got turned on to Patrick McDonnell from his book about George Herriman before I started reading Mutts. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's great. And this is going to be a big thrill. So be there, be square. 

Oh, actually, yes. If you want, I could use some help. If you want to Pre order the Amelia 25th anniversary editions, you could subscribe to our newsletter and there'll be a link there. But you could also just go over to Gville Comics on Substack and you could buy the new Amelia 25th anniversary editions with brand new stories. Harold, are you going anyplace, being anywhere?

Harold: No, this is going to be right after Christmas. So after having a marathon going all around the country, I just got back from Hawaii on vacation with Diane.

Jimmy: Oh, wow, that's wonderful. Well, and Michael I want to tell people what you're working on. Two things. First off, you are at the end, I noticed, of reprinting the original run of Strange Attractors. So there's going to be brand new material coming out soon.

Michael: Yeah, three weeks. I'm going to start it out.

Jimmy: Three weeks. That is amazing.

Michael: The legendary number 16.

Jimmy: Yeah. Which is also available on Substack. Where do you prefer people find it?

Michael: Comic Fury OR substack 

Liz: or michaelcoenart.com 

Jimmy: There you go.

Jimmy: And the other thing Michael's working on is a brand new, completely reorchestrated version of Amelia Rules. A very ninja Christmas musical.

Michael: Yeah, that'll be next Christmas. So one year from now, Christmas, we're going to have a podcast.

Jimmy: And that's how we're going to wrap up the 25th anniversary celebration of Amelia Rules, with the brand new release of the songs from the musical, newly recorded versions. It's going to be so much fun. But that's a year from now. You'll hear from us 26 times between now and then.

Harold: Sure.

Jimmy: So anyway, yeah, and you could also find us on social, media, where we're unpackpeanuts somewhere and unpacking peanuts someplace else. So find us there. For Michael, Harold and Liz, this is Jimmy saying, be of good cheer.

MH&L: Yes, be of good cheer.

VO: Unpacking Peanuts is copyright Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen, Harold Buchholz and Liz Sumner. Produced and edited by Liz Sumner. Music by Michael Cohen. Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark. For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads. Unpacking Peanuts on Facebook, Blue sky and YouTube. For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.